Talk:Johannes Ockeghem

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Number of motets

To the anon editor from Belgium who reduced the number of Ockeghem motets from 10 to 5: I am aware the the number of motets and chansons attributed to Ockeghem shrinks from time to time. Grove (1980) lists 9 plus the song motet on the death of Binchois as being solidly by Ockeghem. If you are aware of more current scholarship showing that some of these have been pulled away I'd love to know. Also, I notice you changed the link from Dutch School to Netherlandish school: the current article "Dutch school" has the basic info on the Netherlandish school, but if you would rather move the article to one of that name, let's talk about it--the name "Dutch school" has bugged me for a while now, and I'd be inclined to support such a move. Antandrus 19:37, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Greetings. I am not the writer to whom you addressed your question, but I thought I would add that Martin Picker also lists five authentic motets of Ockeghem. See M. Picker, Johannes Ockeghem and Jacob Obrecht: A Guide to Research (New York: Garland Publishing Co., 1988) pp. 27-28. Wexler (Collected Works III, 1992) does as well, but gives slightly more credence to the possibility that Vivit Dominus may belong as well. (It is listed as an authentic work, but the authenticity seems to be dismissed in a note.) I have used Picker's seminal work as a guide in formulating my own (cautious) authenticated list; however, I realize that additional research may result in other works eventually being accepted as part of the Ockeghem canon (e.g., Caeleste beneficium, Gaude Maria, and Vivit Dominus). Pseudo-Ockeghem 17:30, 21 June 2007.

Composer project review

I've reviewed this article as part of the Composers project review of its B-class articles. This is content-wise a fine article. It primarily lacks images (e.g. the one from Chigi Codex, but it needs 3-4), and inline citations sufficient to pass a formal review.

I would support an A rating for this article if those things are improved. Magic♪piano 23:01, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Portrait?

There is no sourcing that indicates how or why this is believed to be Ockeghem. I have never seen this presented as a possible likeness. There is an illustration from a manuscript that was always assumed to be Ockeghem, but this is not it. I am happy to be convinced, but there needs to be some explanation of the source of this image or else it should be taken down.RobtCSimon (talk) 13:08, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

I was skeptical at first too, but back in March when someone added it I did a little research, and left it alone. See Reinhard Strohm, "Portrait of a Musician", in Johannes Ockeghem: Actes du XLe Colloque international des d'études humanistes [Tours, 1997] ed. Philippe Vendrix (Paris, Klinckseick, 1998), pp 167-172. If you look at the full size portrait (in the De Young Museum, San Francisco) you see some music on the headdress, which is "Ma bouche rit et ma pensee pleure". This is all rather recent, of course, and the identification is tentative. The picture, in full color and turned the other way (this one is mirrored) is also on the cover of Musica antiqua: Actuele informatie over oude muziek, 14/2 (May 1997). Antandrus (talk) 13:52, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Johannes Ockeghem/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Comment(s)

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==Composers Project Assessment of Johannes Ockeghem: 2008-12-22== This is an assessment of article Johannes Ockeghem by a member of the Composers project, according to its assessment criteria. This review was done by Magicpiano. If an article is well-cited, the reviewer is assuming that the article reflects reasonably current scholarship, and deficiencies in the historical record that are documented in a particular area will be appropriately scored. If insufficient inline citations are present, the reviewer will assume that deficiencies in that area may be cured, and that area may be scored down. Adherence to overall Wikipedia standards (WP:MOS, WP:WIAGA, WP:WIAFA) are the reviewer's opinion, and are not a substitute for the Wikipedia's processes for awarding Good Article or Featured Article status. ===Origins/family background/studies=== Does the article reflect what is known about the composer's background and childhood? If s/he received musical training as a child, who from, is the experience and nature of the early teachers' influences described? ok ===Early career=== Does the article indicate when s/he started composing, discuss early style, success/failure? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed? ok ===Mature career=== Does the article discuss his/her adult life and composition history? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed? ok ===List(s) of works=== Are lists of the composer's works in WP, linked from this article? If there are special catalogs (e.g. Köchel for Mozart, Hoboken for Haydn), are they used? If the composer has written more than 20-30 works, any exhaustive listing should be placed in a separate article. ok ===Critical appreciation=== Does the article discuss his/her style, reception by critics and the public (both during his/her life, and over time)? ok ===Illustrations and sound clips=== Does the article contain images of its subject, birthplace, gravesite or other memorials, important residences, manuscript pages, museums, etc? Does it contain samples of the composer's work (as composer and/or performer, if appropriate)? (Note that since many 20th-century works are copyrighted, it may not be possible to acquire more than brief fair use samples of those works, but efforts should be made to do so.) If an article is of high enough quality, do its images and media comply with image use policy and non-free content policy? (Adherence to these is needed for Good Article or Featured Article consideration, and is apparently a common reason for nominations being quick-failed.) No images, article should have several; one sound clip. ===References, sources and bibliography=== Does the article contain a suitable number of references? Does it contain sufficient inline citations? (For an article to pass Good Article nomination, every paragraph possibly excepting those in the lead, and every direct quotation, should have at least one footnote.) If appropriate, does it include Further Reading or Bibliography beyond the cited references? Article has references; some inline citations. Not too many more needed for GA. ===Structure and compliance with WP:MOS=== Does the article comply with Wikipedia style and layout guidelines, especially WP:MOS, WP:LEAD, WP:LAYOUT, and possibly WP:SIZE? (Article length is not generally significant, although Featured Articles Candidates may be questioned for excessive length.) lead is short ===Things that may be necessary to pass a Good Article review=== Article requires more inline citations (WP:CITE) Article lead needs work (WP:LEAD) Article needs (more) images and/or other media (MOS:IMAGE) ===Summary=== This is actually a pretty interesting article to read; I enjoyed reading about the controversies over his early days. The article has been well-researched, but some parts lack inline citations, e.g. the last paragraph of the Life section (which appears to need better integration with the rest of the story). His (known?) works are listed. There are enough that these should be split off into a "List of compositions of" page; this would give additional room to list even works of controversial attribution. There is one sound clip; there are no images. The image from Chigi Codex should be used here; it is clearly appropriate. One additional word on inline citations: there is some inconsistency in their placement with respect to punctuation. WP:REFPUNC recommends consistency here; either all before or all after adjacent punctuation. (I prefer after on aesthetic grounds.) Article is B-class; citations and images stand in the way of higher ratings. Magic♪piano 22:58, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Last edited at 22:58, 22 December 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 20:04, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

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