Talk:Springfield, Massachusetts

Really not incorporated until 1852?

The length of time between settlement and incorporation is highly unusual. Was the date actually 1652? 2602:304:CDA6:51B0:A0EA:9FB5:D8B5:C42D (talk) 22:39, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

Obviously late to the party, but "incorporation" in New England almost invariably means when a town legally becomes a city. Towns are "founded." Cities are "incorporated." Ravenswing 14:32, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

Well there's a difference between town and city. Springfield was a town before then, just a big town. B-Movie Fan (talk) 20:49, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Bradley International Airport

I changed the wording to remove any illusion that Springfield has any relationship with the airport other than residents use it. Markvs88 (talk) 01:20, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

Update: I've had several queries as to what my reason(s) were as to why "Connecticut's Bradley International Airport, is 12 miles (19 km) south of Metro Center Springfield." is correct wording and "is known as the Hartford-Springfield airport" is not accurate.

1) Interestingly, all I did was word the entry about the airport in the lede to match what's under Transportation | Air later in the article(!) Which makes me ask... why is it in the lede at all, and why is it okay further down in the article?

2) Bradley International Airport is wholly owned and operated by the Connecticut Airport Authority. Springfield and Massachusetts contribute zero dollars to the airport on a yearly basis. I am not opposed to wording that states the airport serves the city/region, but anything beyond that alludes to some sort of ownership.

3) All three of the three citations are from airlines, not the airport itself nor any official agency. While some of the airlines (AA, Delta, Jetblue) call the airport Hartford-Springfield... that's only for their ROUTE DESTINATIONS, and not the airport itself. Other airlines (Southwest, Spirit, United) call their airport routes Hartford, Bradley (or some variant lacking Springfield).

3b) SFY is the the International Air Transport Association (IATA) code for Springfield, which is used for flights into both Bradley International Airport (IATA: BDL) and Westover Metropolitan Airport (IATA: CEF) as a convenience.

3c) However, I cannot find *any* flights that originate FROM SFY -- it is impossible to fly out of Springfield (from either airport). That includes those airlines that list "Hartford-Springfield" as a destination and various aggregators (Kayak, Orbitz, Expedia, Cheapoair...).

4) Finally and most importantly, Bradley International Airport is not listed as "Hartford-Springfield" by the FAA, but exclusively as Bradley International Airport.

TL:DR version: Bradley International Airport is not known as "Hartford-Springfield" except by some airlines for incoming flights only. The airport is owned by Connecticut and has no tie to Springfield other than its residents prefer to drive to it instead of going to Boston.

Best, Markvs88 (talk) 03:12, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

Marksvs88, the article is not yours alone to arbitrarily make a decision. It sounds like several people are questioning YOUR decision to summarily change wording on what Bradley Airport is known as. A couple of points:

1. As far as I am aware, no one is arguing over who funds or operate the airport. This is solely about what the airport is alternatively known as. Stop bringing up those points as they have ZERO impact on what the airport is alternatively known as.

2. As you yourself point point out, there are several entities that operate out of Bradley International Airport that acknowledge and use the term "Hartford/Springfield" when referring to the airport. One would think that they know better what the airport is alternatively known as.

3. The state DOT has referred to that name.

4. Other aviation centered groups beyond airlines themselves use that term.

5. Other government agencies such as the National Weather Service issues forecasts for BDL and refer to it as "Hartford/Springfield"

6. Windsor Locks, CT is part of the Springfield Metropolitan Area so technically, even though Connecticut pays and operates the airport, it's the residents of the Hartford Metropolitan area that use the airport and not vice versa.

Setting aside the funding/operating arguments, which only you keep bringing up, you have been given no less than 9 references showing that Bradley International Airport is alternatively known as the Hartford/Springfield airport. I think the should suffice. Unless you say otherwise to prevent an edit war, I will make that change. Best, Dbroer (talk) 01:02, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

Hello Dbrooer,

Actually, the article is mine to edit the same as it is yours, and I started this talk section to prevent edit warring. I have spelled out my reasoning, both here and on my talk page with you.

It also would have been nice of you to wait for my actual reply, or to have answered any of the questions I posted, which I relist here. As you have taken the time to discuss, I will not revert this while we discuss.

1. Again: if this was about what the airport is alternatively known as, why is it in the LEDE? The LEDE is supposed to be about what the city has/is. Further, why not answer why the wording is just fine in the transportation section but not in the lede?

2. So three airlines say it and it must be gospel, never mind that three others do not *and* that you cannot fly OUT of Springfield... from *either* airport using SFY? Oh, and that the 'FAA does not use the term, nor does the airport itself?

3. The CT DOT reference is wholly spurious. In the 20 mentions of "Springfield" in the article, none of the are about the airport except (perhaps) #8, which is a copied in e-mail from a non-state source!

4. Well... not so fast there. The NYCAvaiation link is about POSTS that include the term, so that's out. Facebook is de-facto not a reliable source, so that's out too. I'll look at Airliners.Net when I have more time tomorrow.

5. You only provided NOAA, but I will look at that tomorrow too.

6. Windsor Locks, Connecticut is in Connecticut. The Springfield Metropolitan Area is nothing more than a governmental statistical entity.

Three of the six above aren't viable. The other three (airliner) ones are not valid for the reasons I listed above, or are at best secondary to the FAA. I'll get back to you on the other two when I have more time tomorrow. Thanks, Markvs88 (talk) 00:25, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

Hello Marksv88...thanks for allowing some discussion. My thoughts to your points:

1. I have no opinion if mention of the airport should be in the LEDE outside of the fact that it appears to be in a paragraph regarding the Hartford-Springfield area and that the two cities share use of the airport.

2. It's OK that not everyone or every airline calls Bradley "Hartford-Springfield" but the fact that some do supports the fact that the name is used. I've never heard of "SFY" so I'm not surprised that you can't book a flight using that code. Other places have three-letter identifiers like NYC. It doesn't mean that I can book a flight to NYC but I can book a flight to LGA or JFK.

3. Understood, however, the document clearly shows how important the Hartford/Springfield area is to the airport.

4. I wasn't trying to provide encyclopedic references but rather show you that independent groups in and out of aviation use the term "Hartford/Springfield" when referring to Bradley.

5. The NWS link shows a page showing weather at cities across the country. The weather and forecast is for the main airport for the city. It lists "Hartford Spgfld" for Bradley.

6. I brought up the metro area because you were alluding to the fact that it was "Hartford's" airport and that Springfield residents just happen to prefer it over driving 90 miles to Boston. I do think it's worthy to note.

For good or bad the two cities are tied together and share the use of resources. Bradley is just one of those key resources. The fact is that it has been demonstrated that the airport as a destination is known as the Hartford/Springfield. The airport's Website itself does not exclude Springfield and specifically mentions the Hartford/Springfield area. It should go without saying that if the airport itself refers to the destination as "Hartford/Springfield" that the airport is the "Hartford/Springfield" airport. I really don't know how it can be seen otherwise, save for the fact that a couple of carriers just refer to it as "Hartford". Dbroer (talk) 17:44, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

Hello Dbrooer, I'm happy to talk but after this I don't see how there can be much to discuss. I apologize for the long-windiness of this reply but I wanted to be thorough.

1. I don't know of any other city that has a reference to an airport that is not its own in the lede. Likewise, you've still not explained why the text I wrote in the lede isn't fine... while what's essentially the same text that was *not* written by me in the Transportation section is. Also... if you don't have an opinion, let's delete the second half of your sentence and have done with it ?

1b. The City of Springfield does NOT share use of the airport. Sharing implies some sort of ownership.The residents of Springfield can use the airport, the same way that some residents near Willimantic, Connecticut can fly out of Boston.

Does Springfield consult with the Connecticut Airport Authority on how the airport is run? Host any of the facilities? Contribute funds? (I know you're tired of that, but it IS germane here). No. By the "Hartford-Springfield" logic you are proposing, we would need to rename the MassMutual Center to the "MassConnMutual Center", since CT residents also use it. Hey, let's rename the company too -- after all, the guy who founded it was an ex-Connecticut Life employee.

1c. Even in the Bradley International Airport article it isn't called "Hartford-Springfield". I've even gone so far as to look back through to 2008 and I can't find any entry of it, though I admit I was just clicking 500 and searching for "Spring" on every 50th page or so.

2. I agree, it's okay that not everyone calls Bradley "Hartford-Springfield". Because that's not it's name. What's important is that a) the airport, b) the CAA, c) the FAA and d) the TSA call it Bradley.

2b. That you've never heard of it is a problem... without it, there is no Springfield airline destination. I do not understand your point about NYC. As I stated, SFY *is* the airline destination for the intangible Springfield airport (since it's used for flights into both Bradley and Westover). NYC is short for the city, and is not an airport IATA code.

I think that maybe part of the problem is that the abbreviation is SFY vs. NYC for New York City but not one of the airports. However, NYC is the exception. Miami uses MIA for both. Seattle uses SEA for both... and Boston uses BOS for both.

3. Come on now... that's a far cry from "The CT DOT calls it...". Surely you're not going to continue to contest this point?! Again, I'm not saying that there is no such a things as Hartford Springfield region, etc. However, it is clearly not the name of the airport. To say so is wp:or.

4. If the references aren't encyclopedic they cannot be used here. I'm not here to debate something over beers, I'm working on an encyclopedia entry. BTW, your google search displays no results with "Hartford-Springfield is another name for Bradley International Airport" or some variation.

5. I just took a look at the NOAA link. This is a "Selected Cities Summary". Nowhere does it state that it is a list of airports. [1] Further, if we go to page 3, there is no JFK or Laguardia, just New York City [2].

6. Again: I have never called it Hartford's airport. I call it Connecticut's airport, because that's what it is.

No, the two cities are just that -- two cities. They compete against one another for somethings, they work together on others. Sharing, again, implies ownership. If we share a flat, we both live there. Springfield does not live in Windsor Locks.

At this point: the destination is called "Hartford-Springfield" by three airlines for their own use. Three others do not. Again, the airport does not refer to itself as "Hartford-Springfield", and you have provided no links to prove to the contrary. The only cited points you have for this are the said three airlines... vs the airport, the CAA, the FAA and the TSA.

I'm sorry, but without better references I don't see how the article can state "is part of the Springfield Metropolitan Area and is alternatively known as the Hartford-Springfield airport". Particularly because Windsor Locks is NOT in Springfield's Metro Area. [3] It's in it's NECTA. That is not the same thing. But either way -- it's still nothing more than a federal statistical entity.

Thanks for reading, I again apologize for the length of this reply! Markvs88 (talk) 02:22, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

My responses:

1. If no other city lists the airport in the LEDE, let's delete all mention of it then to be consistent. No need then to be concerned about labels.

1b. Merriam-Webster defines sharing as "to partake of, use, experience, occupy, or enjoy with others or to have in common". Nowhere does it state that to share something means to have ownership. Residents of the region share use of the airport. It does not mean that any of them have to have ownership to share use of the airport. That's a silly notion and I don't know why you keep circling back to it.

1c. Are we trying to use a Wikipedia article as a reference? That article is about the airport itself, not the region that uses it.

2. We're not talking about the airport's name.

2b. Actually, NYC IS an IATA code for New York City. The point is that it's a code for a city but no one books under that code. They aren't flying into NYC they are flying into LGA or JFK. The fact that you don't understand the relevance to SFY is probably part of the problem. No one is booking flights to SFY when they want to come to Springfield. They are booking to BDL as per airlines and even the airport itself.

3. Again, we're not talking about the airport's name just the fact that it is used in the Hartford/Springfield region.

4. I agree that non-encyclopedic references should be used in the article but there's no reason that they can't be used to demonstrate in a discussion that when people outside of our circle refer to an airport in the Hartford/Springfield are that they typically refer to Bradley.

5. If you look at the NWS's Selected Cities tables, there are three columns. The first one contains the previous days high & low and measured precip. The second and third are forecasts for the current day and next day. It's easy to match up the high, low and precip up with what was measured at the airport and know where the data is for. The entry for "Hartford Spgfld" is for BDL as BDL is official measurement site for the area. The fact that they refer to it as Hartford/Springfield is a clear indicator that an independent government agency refers to it as Hartford/Springfield's airport.

6. I think you're being too literal when it comes to ownership. True, it is "Connecticut's" airport in the fact that it pays for and operates the airport but it's also true that people within the greater Hartford/Springfield area use the airport and so it would be correct to call it the Hartford/Springfield area's airport. Both metro areas make use of the airport.

7. MSA's and NECTA's are the same thing and Windsor Locks IS part of the Springfield Metro area according to the federal government - even if they call it an NECTA. Even the article you link to says they are the same thing. So that statement is supported. So, we can support the part of the sentence that states "is part of the Springfield Metropolitan Area". Stating that Windsor Locks is not the NECTA (aka MSA) would not be factual.

8. Bradley clearly sits in the middle of the Hartford/Springfield region. Its distance between the two cities is stated on numerous resources, including the airports reports as well as on the Hartford/Springfield Economic Partnership Website (aka the Knowledge Corridor). Even the airlines that you tout as not calling the destination "Hartford/Springfield" link the two. For example, if I go to Southwest Airlines and state that I want to fly to Springfield it will give me the option of Bradley. Therefore I see no reason why this portion of the sentence is not supported: "and is alternatively known as the Hartford-Springfield airport".

At this point, if we can't come to a consensus due to differences over the definition of what sharing means or agree that the airport is part of the Hartford/Springfield region I say delete the mention from the LEDE. However, I feel that I've demonstrated that multiple government agencies, including the airport itself refer to the Hartford/Springfield area and the fact that Bradley is the regional passenger airport. The airport touts it, the Knowledge Corridor touts it, the National Weather Service uses it and even the airlines that serve the airport use it. In fact, I have not seen a single point that states that Bradley is NOT the Hartford/Springfield area's airport. So if we can't agree, delete it from the LEDE and be done with it. Dbroer (talk) 15:58, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

Hi Dbroer,

1. Then we have an accord! Excellent.

1b. Um... "Definition of shared - 1 : used, done, belonging to, or experienced by two or more individuals" [4]. *That* is why I keep coming back to it.

1c. Actually, that's the whole point, isn't it? This article is about the City of Springfield, it is not the Hartford–Springfield article. So as I keep saying... this airport has nothing to do with the City of Springfield, and it should definitely not be in the lede.

2. Um... that's what I've been talking about the whole time. The sentence I made I am fine with. It was your addition of "is part of the Springfield Metropolitan Area and is alternatively known as the Hartford-Springfield airport". Both of which are not accurate statements.

2b. Yes, as a destination, not as an airport. Like I've been saying, the airport is BDL - aka Bradley. The destination route that those three airlines use is SFY. Which is why "is alternatively known as the Hartford-Springfield airport" is not correct. It is mixing destinations (cities) with the airport name.

3. Again, we're talking about "is alternatively known as the Hartford-Springfield airport". Which it clearly is not.

4. There are lots of people that call a certain football team "The Cheatriots". It doesn't mean that's an acceptable alternative name for them, does it?

5. Again, we are talking about "is alternatively known as the Hartford-Springfield airport". This citation is not about airports.

6. Yes, both metro areas use the airport. One state owns it, and that state is not MA.

7. Again, no. The MSA is specifically 3 MA counties. NECTA is an alternative method to look at data. As stated, Windsor Locks is *not* in Springfield's MSA. And again, this article is about the City of Springfield, not the MSA.

8. Yeah, what a revelation: I ask to fly to a city with no airport of its own, and they find the closest one. Truly, that's amazing. Did you know that if you just walked up and asked to fly to "Springfield" the airport you are sent to is this one? Springfield–Branson National Airport

The NOAA link is just a list of cities and nothing more. That said, I agree to delete in the lede, I do not think you've proven anything regarding the name of the Airport as you have shown zero government sources using it. I am glad our discussion remained cordial, and I wish you well. See you around! Markvs88 (talk) 20:23, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

"I do not think you've proven anything regarding the name of the Airport as you have shown zero government sources using it." Likewise, you haven't proven anything either. You've falsely claimed that I haven't shown any government links showing that Bradley is the Hartford/Springfield airport along with some other false claims as well as thrown in some other comments but there's no need to go back and forth since we've come to an agreement that we can take any mention of the airport out of the LEDE. I wish our conversation was more cordial but if you feel it was, I wish you well. Peace. Dbroer (talk) 14:06, 12 October 2018 (UTC)

References

Reversion of the removal of country and state flags from the infobox

Many years ago I was informed, by editors and administrators alike, that the consensus on the use on flags in infoboxes was that "settlements" are not an exception, and, after a random glance at towns of all sizes across the world, it appears most editors are compliant. However, their removal to this article has been reverted by Simtropolitan with the following edit summary: "(reversed change; MOS:INFOBOXFLAG does allow use of flags in cities and other populated places; do agree however showing flags of previous countries does detract from subject)", and although MOS:INFOBOXFLAG does say Where one article covers both human and physical geographic subjects (e.g., Manhattan, which covers both the borough of New York City and the island of the same name), or where the status of the territory is subject to a political dispute, the consensus of editors at that article will determine whether flag use in the infobox is preferred or not., there appears to have been no debate on this or consensus reached. My Favourite Account  ^😊 16:27, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

@My Favourite Account:, Respectfully I think you are misinterpreting that clause. It doesn't apply here as it calls for Where one article covers both human and physical geographic subjects or where the status of the territory is subject to a political dispute; in this case that might apply if the Connecticut River Valley were in dispute but Springfield is not Manhattan, it has no corresponding geographic unit which is coterminous with its boundaries. Nor does it have any ongoing political dispute related to its city status. Would you be able to point to an intersection between Springfield the human geographic subject and a related physical geographic boundary?--Simtropolitan (talk) 16:40, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

You have me, "I am unable to point to an intersection between Springfield the human geographic subject and a related physical geographic boundary", and despite their use is limited to a very select number of articles, you are right, my mistake. Human geographic articles – for example settlements and administrative subdivisions – may have flags of the country and first-level administrative subdivision in infoboxes., I apologise and humbly submit we change all the others.

My Favourite Account  ^😊 17:32, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

It's quite alright, thank you very much for at least trying to create consistency. I wouldn't be opposed to having a discussion about whether or not this should be the case in the MOS talk page, as I do find it spammish when things like the "New England flag" appear in geo infoboxes (though cultural, it has never held an official place in any gov or organization). Regards --Simtropolitan (talk) 17:38, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

Are you aware of how few articles have the flags in the Country, State and County fields of their infoboxes? Might I suggest you do a random selection of town and cities throughout the world to find out.

My Favourite Account  ^😊 17:55, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

Unwarranted removal of a CN tag

Today the city is the largest in western New England, and the urban, economic, and cultural capital of Massachusetts' section of the Connecticut River Valley,[citation needed] colloquially known as the Pioneer Valley. I have invited the other user in the summaries to cite this claim, he is saying it is common knowledge. That's simply not the case. Springfield is the largest city in western NE, sure, but saying it is the cultural capital of anywhere is subjective and needs a source. And that's all I'm asking for. Markvs88 (talk) 20:24, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

• Note this exact same thing has been discussed before, but with Boston instead of Springfield, and came to a reliable outcome. Please see Talk:New_England/Archive_5#Boston_vs_Hartford. Markvs88 (talk) 20:30, 4 March 2019 (UTC);

Again copied here. That is not the statement claimed for reversion, so please do not misrepresent what it is I am advocating for. "...the urban, economic, and media capital of Massachusetts' section of the Connecticut River Valley" repeated as on your talk page- "the term 'cultural capital' is loaded, but to say a citation must demonstrate an economic, media, or administrative role, by any name, is disingenuous when the region's MSA, CSA, and DMA, use Springfield as a handle. It's unneccessary when you could put this a hundred different ways-- the US District Court maintains its sole MA courthouse outside the Boston CSA there, as does the IRS's offices, the largest of private revenue is there, as well as more agencies regional, state and Federal than any city in the Pioneer Valley or Berkshires. Making a case for another "cultural capital", should the term have merit, has other contenders. You don't need a lede source to say Albany is the center of the Capital Region, or Portland is southern Maine's economic center, asking for proof that Springfield the city is the "core" or "capital" of the Springfield Metropolitan Area, as well as your repeated tangential opinions to justify edits, again leads me to believe they are not made in good faith."--Simtropolitan (talk) 20:33, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

If you want to talk about things "not made in good faith".... Changing the word "culture" to "media" after a revision and not making it plain in the edit summary is one example. Not going to talk until after being called out for putting a spurious edit warring message on a my talk page is another example.

That said, I can support "the city is the largest in western New England, and the urban, economic, and cultural media capital of Massachusetts' section of the Connecticut River Valley..." without a CN tag. Here, the word "section" is IMO imperative, as the Connecticut River Valley goes through four states and there's no way for the prior wording to stand without a source. But saying Springfield is the center for MA's section? Sure, that's reasonable. If you are in agreement please feel free to remove the CN tag. Best wishes, Markvs88 (talk) 01:26, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

>Edit summary, "Wikipedia:Facts precede opinions, reworded for NPOV as again, media market is Springfield-Holyoke market, not Amherst, Amherst is within market)".

Take the time to read the edit, before you go reverting it the third and fourth time. Personally I don't think "cultural capital" is a term that ought to belong in an encyclopedia except the circumstance that it is the largest city or a subdivision capital nominally, as it the center from which media is marketed [isn't necessarily a "cultural capital" in broad terms], but if that's what it was and you're for it, we [could] use it, as the region is defined as integrated to this core-based statistical area (CBSA), the social and economic "capital", in the literary sense. Adding "section" is ample.--Simtropolitan (talk) 02:43, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

• Just to throw my two cents' in, I wager that with multiple theaters, multiple concert venues, multiple museums and a lively arts scene, Northampton would dispute the "cultural capital" bit. Ravenswing 02:31, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

I don't disagree, I'm not a fan of that specific language myself as it's rife for edit warring and infighting. Would say Springfield is the administrative, economic, and media capital, but I would agree, that it's not the likeliest contender for that title.--Simtropolitan (talk) 02:43, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

References

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 21 September 2021 and 16 November 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Doucereuse.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 10:04, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Notable people

The Notable people list is very long. Does anyone have any thoughts on if the list was made into a separate page? Kaltenmeyer (talk) 03:31, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

• Makes perfect sense; go for it. Ravenswing 13:56, 5 August 2022 (UTC)