Talk:Saint Vincent and the Grenadines

Languages

there is no evidence or references supporting the claim that st. vincent's mother tongue is Vincentian Creole. please provide some. 71.63.105.37 (talk) 05:37, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, you're right I didn't include evidence before 24 Feb. I did soon after though but it was deleted by T-rex. I'll post it again here.

• Ethnologue entry for Saint Vincent and the Grenadines
• Holbrook, David Joseph. 2006. The classification of the English-lexifier creole languages spoken in Grenada, Guyana, St. Vincent, and Tobago using a comparison of the markers of some key grammatical features: a tool for determining the potential to share and/or adapt literary development materials.‭ Ph.D., The University of the West Indies. xxi, 418 p.

You can see in the Ethnologue entry that the number of speakers of Vincentian Creole English is much greater than the number of English speakers. Nrp0450 (talk) 20:05, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

That number is not even close. Ignoring for a second the fact that there aren't that many people in the country to begin with, any claim that says less then 1% speak english is not even remotely close to being correct. --03:20, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Those numbers are for mother tongue speakers, the mother tongue being the first language you learn as a child. Most Vincentians speak English, but it's not the first language they learn. As for the the numbers not appearing to add up, you may know that for most Caribbean islands at any given time half of the people that were born there are living in the US, Canada, or the UK. So they are mother tongue speakers but not part of the census population for the island. That may have something to do with it, I didn't write the Ethnologue entry so I don't know what's behind the numbers. (Nrp0450 (talk) 21:24, 31 March 2008 (UTC))

One might also consider consulting the American Anthropologist article by Roger D. Abrahams & Richard Bauman (1971) titled "Sense and Nonsense in St. Vincent: Speech Behavior and Decorum in a Caribbean Community" or the book Contact Englishes of the Eastern Caribbean (ISBN 9027248907) by Michael Aceto & Jeffrey Payne Williams (2003) for more information. Maher-shalal-hashbaz (talk) 14:15, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Please see also the CIA fact book entry for confirmation of the status of a second language derived from non-standard French. Maher-shalal-hashbaz (talk) 19:45, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually the CIA fact book entry backs up exactly what I've been saying all along. I've never claimed that these languages don't exsist, only that they are not widely spoken and that English is the primary language by a large margin --T-rex 19:59, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Then why the need to remove all reference to the language? Why didn't you just alter the statement to reflect that understanding instead of needlessly reverting the entry a half-dozen times? Maher-shalal-hashbaz (talk) 20:04, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Because the vast majority of the paragraph is flat out incorrect. Also, I'm not 100% convinced that it is significant enough to mention on this page. --T-rex 21:24, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

It might also be interesting to note a 2005 news article on the Official website of the Government of St. Vincent and the Grenadines mentions a workshop that "would look at the Creole language and teaching English as a second language." Maher-shalal-hashbaz (talk) 15:03, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps I should point out that the Official website of the Government of St. Vincent and the Grenadines is in English? But beyond that the article says nothing on the topic anyhow. While the (short) article is mostly on a different topic, and does include the line you quoted at the very bottom, if anything you should note the implication that the Creole language is not presently used. Once again, I am not trying to say that the language doesn't exist, but that English is the primary language of well over 90% of the nation's population. --T-rex 20:05, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, English is the official language of St. Vincent. Most locals speak a corrupted form of English ("Vincentian Creole") in informal situations, just like the article says. If you classify "Vincentian Creole" as a separate language (as Jamaican Creole apparently is) then it's most likely the primary language. Of course I don't know of any statistics to back this up, but if you've lived in SVG then you'd probably agree. -Roger (talk) 22:05, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Everything I've seen seems to point to this as being a separate language, rather than just an accent or "corrupted English", so that doesn't appear to be the case here. The problem is it is clearly not a well known language on the island at all. --02:16, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Everything I've seen seems to point to this as being a separate language

I don't know what decides that, but if Jamaican Creole is a seperate language then so should be Vincentian Creole. And if it is, then it's an English based language (again, like Jamaican Creole).

The problem is it is clearly not a well known language on the island at all

Absolutely not true. Everyone in St. Vincent has heard it, and virtually every local speaks it. -Roger (talk) 02:26, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

See thats where you are wrong. Everyone does not speak it. In fact close to (and possibly exactly) Nobody speaks it. Imagine the word nobody in bold if that helps you understand the situation. --T-rex 18:35, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Additionally I would like to point out the CIA world factbook does not mention Vincentian Creole, and instead lists the language as "English, French patois" with the additional note that "This entry provides a rank ordering of languages starting with the largest". In fact nobody has yet to point out a source that says other wise. --T-rex 19:11, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, several sources have been pointed to that said otherwise. For starters, the work done by SIL International, a team of language experts, has been cited in the article. Both of the other sources cited currently in the article say otherwise as well. In addition, one could look at People, Language & Religion page on visitsvg.com, which states "English is the dominant and official language of St. Vincent and the Grenadines. For everyday use, however, most Vincentians speak a local dialect, called Vincentian English or “Vincy” English." A local business, Bay Hill Apartments says "English is the first language of St. Vincent & the Grenadines, locals speak an English dialect." Also the St. Vincent and the Grenadines Meteorological Service page lists English and Dialect as the languages. Maher-shalal-hashbaz (talk) 19:46, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

No, none have. Even the links in your last post don't even come close to saying that. Every single source listed either mentions that English is the primary language, or that anything else spoken is simply English with an accent. Do I need to walk you through it step by step? --T-rex 21:23, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure what more you want.

Are you arguing that Vincentian creole doesn't qualify as a language? Or that no one speaks it anymore? What do you think about Jamaican Creole? -Roger (talk) 21:52, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

I want to see a source stating that Vincentian Creole is more commonly spoken on the island then English. Or possibly a source that that shows that English is not the first language of 90% or more of the population. All I've seen so far is only an indication that Vincentian Creole merely exists. So far there is still no source provided by anyone that disputes my assertion that English is the primary language of more than 90% of the island. --T-rex 22:54, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Well you have sources that say locals speak a dialect of English so that's enough to justify a mention in the article. I don't have a source saying that more than 90% of the population speak it (although that would be pretty obvious if you ever lived there), but the previous reversions weren't claiming that anyway. And even if I did, you could still say English is the primary language since the dialect is based on English. -Roger (talk) 01:41, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

So are you saying that Vincentian creole is nothing more than an accent? --T-rex 02:05, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

As much so as Jamaican Creole. -Roger (talk) 02:42, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

T-rex... please imagine a tiny island where everyone that is born native to the tiny little island speaks the mother tongue of slparmly (I made that up). However, this tiny little island is not only heavily dependent on tourism, but is also very effective at education. Since the vast majority of this made up world speaks jaulrlgyis (I made that up too), all of the little children are also taught to understand and speak this language from a very young age, and it is the primary language taught once they go to school. Now... bring in two people... one a tourist and the second a language expert... ask them what is the primary language? Everyone will speak to the tourist in jaulrlgyis, but as the language expert does their study, they will soon find that the nationals have a different mother tongue.

No one is asking you to give up the precious fact that English is not only official, but is also primary. All they are asking is that you admit to the fact that multiple sources, including scholarly articles, books, websites, and first-hand witnesses attest to a second language that is indeed very common on the island. The only other thing that I ask is that you cease from labeling things with rv v when it fails to meet the Wikipedia definition of vandalism. Maher-shalal-hashbaz (talk) 02:17, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

So you are claiming the entire population is bilingual? And that they do so in the interest of the local tourism industry? Even despite the fact that tourism is a very small part of the nation's economy? I'm not really buying that. Also there are no sources that indicate that there is a second language that is "very common on the island". none at all, in fact. Can you actually bother to read the links you post? They don't support your position. --T-rex 14:20, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Maybe if I use a chart you might understand... (using all of the sources in the article)

Source	Text/Description	Argument for English being the dominant and primary language in St. Vincent	Argument for any other language to come close to being used by at least 10% of the nation
Gordon, Raymond G., Jr. (ed.) (2005). "Ethnologue: Languages of the World, 15th edition". Dallas, TX: SIL International. {{cite web}}: |first= has generic name (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)	A book on languages	Mentions English first. Vincentian Creole is only mentioned as "Vincentian Creole English". Also states that the "creole used here is virtually gone"[1]	It mentions Vincentian Creole English
"St. Vincentians". everyculture.com.	A website about countries. (is a bit of a questionable source to begin with actually) says "English is the official language of St. Vincent and the Grenadines. Most people on the islands speak a local dialect, or Creole, that combines elements of West African languages and French. West Indian Creole languages use object pronouns in the subject position. For example, a Vincentian might say, "Me going down town" for "I am going down town.""	Says that "English is the official language", the only example of Creole given reads as broken English rather than as another language.	States that "Most people on the islands speak a local dialect, or Creole" (is the only source to say so)
"Country Fact Sheet on Saint Vincent and the Grenadines". {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |pubisher= ignored (|publisher= suggested) (help)	A Canadian document similar in style to the CIA World Fact Book. States only that "English is the official language. Vincentian Creole English is also used."	Lists English first, Vincentian Creole is only mentioned as "Vincentian Creole English"	It mentions Vincentian Creole English
Background Note: Saint Vincent and the Grenadines - US Dept of State	US State Department info on the country Says "Language: English (official); some French Patois spoken" and also that "The country's official language is English, but a French patois may be heard on some of the Grenadine Islands."	Says that English is the official language. Confines the use of French patois to parts of the Grenadines (The entire Grenadines is only 8% of the population)	Does manage to mention a French patois
"The World Factbook - Saint Vincent and the Grenadines". {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |pubisher= ignored (|publisher= suggested) (help)	The CIA world fact book. States that "This entry provides a rank ordering of languages starting with the largest" then lists "English, French patois"	Clearly states that English is the largest language in the country.	Lists a second language, although it clearly states that it is based on French
Bayhill apartments	Some Hotel/Ad (clearly not a good source, but others seem to think it is) Says only "English is the first language of St. Vincent & the Grenadines, locals speak an English dialect."	Flat out says that "English is the first language of St. Vincent & the Grenadines" Mentions no languages at all except English	none
St. Vincent and the Grenadines Meteorological Service	National Weather page. States that all info is taken from the US State Department and/or the CIA World Fact Book. As a result has the same info	Lists English, with no mention of Creole or patois	none

now that I've posted everything so you don't even have to RTFA can you see any reason to present Vincentian Creole (or anything but English) as the most used and primary one on the island? I have no problem with Vincentian Creole getting a mention, but the undo weight it is receiving is way over the top. --T-rex 15:12, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

• "Most people on the islands speak a local dialect, or Creole," - [2]
• "Most, however, normally speak a creole known locally as "dialect"; This would be unintelligible to the casual visitor, but it is based on an English vocabulary" - [3]
• "English is the official language; in constant struggle with Creole, the local dialect spoken by most of the Grenadines and Saint Vincent population" - [4]

If you need more sources, there are 100,000+ in St. Vincent who'll confirm this. Until then, please refrain from reverting the article. -Roger (talk) 15:34, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

I've talked to many people form St. Vincent (thats what started this mess). As for your links the second one, might help you a bit but I can't figure out where it was originally pulled from, the first one I've already addressed above, and the third doesn't say anything really. How come the most reliable sources we have (Would Fact Book and State Department) are the only ones that don't count? At least the nonsense about portuguese is out of the article --T-rex 18:08, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

"How come the most reliable sources we have are the only ones that don't count"

Because they're incomplete and Vincentian creole isn't officially considered a language. -Roger (talk) 19:03, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

T-rex - while your chart is helpful in laying out all the sources, it doesn't support what you have been trying to do, which is to remove completely the mention of the language, as well as the mention of its frequent use among locals. By the way, I edited some entries to better reflect what was actually said in the sources. I would be in total agreement if you were trying to remove something that says Vincentian Creole is the official or primary language, and I am supportive of removing mentions of French Patois, as that doesn't seem borne out by the most reliable sources we have.

Now, if you look carefully at the study done by SIL, you'll see they list the number of native speakers in parenthesis. What that suggests is totally in line with the analogy provided earlier, that the vast majority of the population, while they clearly speak English (based on your excellent original research), do not have English as their mother tongue. Rather, it is what they call dialect... based on English (not the French version which the study refers to as being virtually gone), but something more than an accent. Maher-shalal-hashbaz (talk) 20:44, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Like I said, try actually reading the source! I appreciate the fact that you are willing to at least realize that there is no French on the island, but that takes away all of your sources supporting anything besides English. I am not trying to remove all mention of Vincentian Creole or any such thing, but to prevent the article from presenting it as if it is the dominant language in the country. English is the dominant language in the region, and any mention of Vincentian Creole in the article needs to reflect that. --T-rex 21:07, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Please don't use rv v in your edit summary when undoing good faith edits. Not only have I read the sources, I've commented on them, and updated the chart to better reflect what they say. The article is in no way trying to present Vincentian Creole as the official or dominant language. Rather, editors have tried to reflect its status as a significant local dialect, which is borne out be multiple sources. Maher-shalal-hashbaz (talk) 11:52, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Please don't delete my comments again. Maher-shalal-hashbaz (talk) 13:07, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

I have filed a report at Wikiquette alerts regarding the removal of my comments by T-rex. Maher-shalal-hashbaz (talk) 21:42, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

While we're on the subject of language, I have never in my life met a Portuguese Vincentian who could speak Portuguese or an Indian who spoke Bhojpuri/Hindi. Has anyone? Because I disagree that either language is spoken in the country. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.48.149.66 (talk) 05:00, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Good point re Portuguese: I'm certain that just about no Portuguese-descended Vincentian speaks Portuguese. I have, however, met one or two Indians Vincies who do speak Hindi. That seems very rare though and, besides, neither it nor Portuguese is anything like a "Recognised national language". I say we remove both of them from that list. Hairouna (talk) 16:21, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree. The claims are extreme dubious already, and I can't find any real sources that say Bhojpuri or Portuguese are spoken in Saint Vincent. Even if they are, its certainly not a "Recognised national language", not even creole has that recognition. I'm going to remove them from the country box, but I'll keep "The various ethnic groups may also still use their native languages such as Bhojpuri.[citation needed][dubious – discuss]" until I've done more research. iamlilyy 05:48, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

But what on earth is the point of listing a northern Indian language as an example if no one on the island speaks it? Seems like it just comes out of nowhere. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.18.244.176 (talk) 13:36, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

GDP PPP per capita

I some how doubt that they make the equivalent to $12 million. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.13.130.47 (talk) 16:37, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Capital of Saint Andrew

This page states that Saint Andrew has no capital; the Saint Andrew page says that the capital is Layou. Can somebody correct whichever is wrong?

--Timtranslates (talk) 20:26, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

St Vincent, St. Vincent, Saint Vincent

The article uses all three forms in the phrase "Saint Vincent and the Grenadines". Should we have an internal standardised way to refer to the state? As far as I know the offical name is Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, so I think the rest of the article conform in all instances... Is the island referred differently to the state in official usage? The article for Saint Lucia, for example, uses the form "Saint" exclusively. Is mixed usage acceptable? That doesn't seem right to be but others might know better. iamlilyy 18:54, 5 June 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Iamlilyy (talk • contribs)

I changed all the references to the island to Saint Vincent, and to the country Saint Vincent and the Grenadines. I feel like other articles should be written the same way, it seems like this is a matter for WikiProject Saint Vincent and the Grenadines iamlilyy 05:56, 8 June 2011 (UTC).

According to the PCGN, St Vincent is the country name, and Saint Vincent and the Grenadines is the state title.

Merger proposal

I think that the content from Saint Vincent and the Grenadines at the Pan American Games should probably be merged into this article since it appears to just be a content fork. Reaper Eternal (talk) 19:11, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Why would we do such a thing? The Pan American Games are a distinct and important regional event, and every country that competes has an article similar to the one we are discussing. Moreover, there is also the Olympics which have articles similar to this one. Intoronto1125TalkContributions 19:24, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Does this make sense?

The article currently reads,

Saint Vincent and the Grenadines is a densely populated country for its size

This strikes me as nonsensical, as population density is derived from a formula that includes size. Am I missing something? Unschool 09:08, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

Agreed, I've reworded it to remove the relative statement and keep the figure. CMD (talk) 11:06, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

Muchas mercis! Unschool 00:29, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Alias

Does Saint Vincent and the Grenadines have a shorter alias, like DR Congo and Laos do? — 𝐆𝐮𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐩𝐢𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐠𝐚 (talk) 10:06, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

@Guarapiranga: - Inside the country they often use the acronym "SVG". Often times they'll say "St. Vincent" to mean the entire country rather than just the main island of St. Vincent. This is actually a problem that afflicts a lot of these Caribbean countries. The next country over for example "Grenada" is made up of one big island (i.e. Grenada) and two smaller ones. I think in the beginning Grenadians wanted to call themselves "The three island nation of Grenada", but I think they gave up and simply used "Grenada". NickCT (talk) 17:14, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

"The Double Taxation Relief (CARICOM) Treaty" section relevant?

It seems like this section covers a very minor treaty on tax law. This section strikes me as incredibly trivial information that is probably only of interest to a few dozen tax lawyers. I can't imagine other articles for countries have similarly obscure sections on treaties covering tax law. Can we delete the section? NickCT (talk) 17:06, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

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