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The 23rd Amendment and Congress

The Republican Congress controls three electoral votes under the 23rd amendment which is supposed to enfranchise the residents of D.C. but which, on a careful reading, grants Congress the plenary powers of a state legislature to appoint electors. The Republicans control Congress and 2004 is a very close presidential election. Somebody call Tom DeLay and Bill Frist, because Bush might need those three electoral votes. Surely the political downside of using them would be negligible since Congressmen aren't accountable in any way to D.C. residents (unlike state legislators which could face their voters' wrath for reassuming the power to appoint electors), and most come from safe Republican districts. Putting those three electoral votes to use would be a slam dunk for the Republicans. Pgva 19:32, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)

You use the phrase careful reading, but then you misrepresent what it says. As with everywhere else in the United States, the electors are required by law to vote based on the populous vote of the state (or district for DC). South Carolina was the very last state to allow electors to vote in opposition to the populous vote. That was reversed back in the 1800's. So, while it is true that Congress chooses who the electors are, those electors are required to cast their vote for whomever wins the majority of the vote in DC. If the majority of DC voters choose Kerry, it doesn't matter if a Republican Congress chooses three Republican electors. Those Republican chosen Republican electors are required by law to vote for Kerry. Identically, if the majority of DC voters choose Bush and the Republican chosen Republican electors vote for Bush, it is not a conspiracy. It is simply law. I just get so irritated when people try to misrepresent the electoral system. It isn't complicated. It isn't a conspiracy. It is very simple. In all but two states, anonymous electors are chosen and required by law to vote for whomever the majority of the state voted for. In all reality, we have an electoral vote nationwide based on a populous vote withing each state (except the two weird ones). Kainaw 18:40, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

"Those Republican chosen Republican electors are required by law to vote for Kerry."

Your argument's assurance that election laws will ensure electors' fidelity to the popular vote is gravely mistaken. Whether presidential electors are, under the constitution, "free agents" -- in other words, whether those laws that seek to bind their votes are enforceable -- is a matter of genuine debate. Your position is implausible given the history of faithless electors including D.C. elector Barbara Lett-Simmons, who in 2000 actually did fail to cast a vote for her party's candidate. But how could that have happened? After all, wasn't there a law? In the example given, the electors are specifically chosen by Congress because they are expected to vote for the Republican candidate notwithstanding other considerations. In that case, I have every confidence that they would choose their party's candidate over any law. Pgva 02:43, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

There has never ever been a case where a faithless electoral voter had any impact of any kind on the election. Therefore, there has never been a need to enforce state laws governing electors. However, there has been a need to question the Constitutionality of state electoral laws. South Carolina's came up for debate over 100 years ago. It ended up adopting the same laws as all other states, not because all other states were unconstitutional, but because all other states were deemed constutitional. The real question that needs to be asked is what would happen if enough electors put in illegal votes to change the election results? Would the Supreme Court step in to counter it? Would that be Constitutional? Kainaw 14:42, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

"Would the Supreme Court step in to counter it? Would that be Constitutional?"

The Supreme Court would have no power to counter it. The 23rd Amendment enables Congress to choose the D.C. electors, and "they shall meet in the District and perform such duties as provided by" the 12th Amendment, which directs them to "vote by ballot for President and Vice President ... which lists they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the seat of government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate ...". After Congress counts the votes, "the person having the greatest number of votes for President, shall be the President..." So Congress chooses the electors, the electors vote as Congress wants, Congress counts their votes and their chosen candidate is elected President according to the constitution. The process is airtight and insulated from executive and judicial review. Manifestly, any law that seeks to bind the electors' votes cannot be enforced except by the sense of moral duty of the electors themselves and of the Congress in counting their votes. Should they follow the course suggested, the law would be a nullity and your argument, futile. Pgva 01:17, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

It took a lot of searching, but I haven't found the specific law stating that Washington DC follows the same law as all other winner-take-all states. In all other states, the Democrats and Republicans gather up their elector list before the election. Then, when one party wins the state, that party's list becomes the list of electors for that state. I've found many references that state Washington DC uses the same practice. That means that the Democrats in DC choose 3 electors. The Republicans choose 3. Then, when the voters choose the Democrat for President, they use the 3 electors chosen by the Democrats.

It seems that you are stuck on the last line of the amendment that enables Congress to enforce the law. That line (or something similar) is at the end of every amendment. It means: The preceding is a law enforceable by Congress. In other words, it gives Congress the right to enforce the law allowing DC to have 3 electors. It does not give Congress the right to choose those electors for DC. Kainaw 17:45, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

"It seems that you are stuck on the last line of the amendment..."

My argument rests on the text of Section 1, not Section 2, specifically the phrase "in such manner as the Congress may direct" (emphasis added). Pgva 18:24, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Kainaw's argument doesn't work. The constitution allows electors to vote for anyone they want to. Some states do have laws that recall "faithless electors", but these might well be declared unconstitutional if challenged. In any case, for DC it would presumably be Congress that had the power to make such a law, so the point is moot.

However, I question this interpretation of the 23rd Amendment on other grounds. The amendment says that The District constituting the seat of Government of the United States shall appoint in such manner as the Congress may direct.... I am not a lawyer, but I suspect that Congress choosing the electors would not qualify as a manner for DC to appoint them. "We direct that the way that DC shall appoint its electors is that we shall appoint them" or "that they shall be Smith, Jones, and Wu" might well not cut it. I any Constitutional scholar on record as interpreting the amendment this way? Josh Cherry 14:05, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

"Congress choosing the electors would not qualify as a manner for DC to appoint them."

Two points. First, the 23rd Amendment makes no reference to D.C. residents and D.C. is not a state (a sovereign, organized body of persons) but merely a seat of government (a place) under the exclusive legislative control of Congress (Const. Article I, Sec. 8). Literally, D.C. has no legal identity of its own except by reference to Congress, which functions as its legislature. Indeed, this fact readily explains why the 23rd Amendment granted Congress the power analogous to state legislatures in determining the manner of appointing electors. I am left wondering what other identity you imagine for D.C. that would contradict this plain reading of the constitution (accepting the Amendment's obvious absurdity in empowering a place rather than persons to appoint electors). Second, even if that were not correct, to whom would the power of deciding fall? Not the Supreme Court, whose intercession in the process is rendered moot by the 12th Amendment as I illustrated; not by the President, who likewise has no role in the process; no, it is Congress and Congress alone that decides. My argument is not so much about which interpretation is correct as about who gets to decide. That Congress is so empowered while also having the ability to cast three electoral votes should concern anyone favoring executive independence; it also illustrates the dangers of unintended consequences in altering the constitution's original design for the sake of good intentions. Pgva 17:55, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

You are correct in that it does not say D.C.. Instead, it says The District constituting the seat of government of the United States, which is currently Washington DC. That may change. Congress might decide to move the district to Omaha. In that case, who wants to rewrite the 23rd amendment.

Now, I can see where you are coming from. In plain English, the amendment states: Washington DC gets 3 electors (that number may vary as the amendment specifies) as directed by Congress. You appear to be reading: Washington DC gets 3 electors appointed by Congress. Am I understanding it correct (finally)?

If you and Josh agree, can this conversation be reorganized in a more chronological fashion to it is easier to see who replied last? Kainaw 21:08, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I continually hear the argument that states cannot legally bind an elector to a specific vote and that if it were attempted, the Supreme Court would step in. I find it frustrating because it already happened: Ray v. Blair, 343 US 214. The Supreme Court empowered states to allow them to legally bind an elector to a pledged vote and punish them if they do not vote as pledged. The reason the state laws are all nearly identical in this case is because they came out of that Supreme Court ruling. That is why I cannot see it reasonable to assume that the Supreme Court would question the constitutionality of a law that the Supreme Court assisted in creating. Kainaw 16:13, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

First, as illustrated above, the Supreme Court can interpret the law however it wants and still be left entirely out of the electoral process under the 12th Amendment. Second, even if electors can be required to sign pledges and punished for violating those pledges, their votes can still be counted by Congress. Again, election laws may try to bind electors' actual votes, but to that extent the laws are a nullity. Pgva 18:15, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Instead of simply bringing up items here, I thought it better to fill out the section on faithless electors. I added the exact number of faithless electors before now. I also added the description of the Ray v. Blair ruling. Cool? Kainaw 16:31, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Resuming our discussion in a chronological fashion: There is no question that a state legislature's power to direct the manner of appointing electors is plenary and encompasses the power to select the electors itself. I cannot discern any difference between the example of a state legislature with respect to its state (empowered by Article II, Sec. 1) and Congress with respect to the District (empowered with identical language by the 23rd Amendment). Contrary to the assertion that the phrase "the District ... shall appoint" limits Congress' range of choices (""We direct that the way that DC shall appoint its electors is that we shall appoint them" or "that they shall be Smith, Jones, and Wu" might well not cut it."), I read that phrase as requiring the District to appoint electors in whatever manner Congress directs, i.e. it is a mandate upon the District rather than Congress. This is true whether the District happens to encompass the city of Washington, the city of Omaha, the U.S. Capitol grounds only, or one unoccupied acre of farmland somewhere in Kansas, which illustrates the problem with the Amendment as well as the "D.C. voting rights" persuasion generally: the District is not principally intended as a residence for citizens but rather a place, limited to ten miles square, where the government does business. The proper answers for those in D.C. demanding the right to vote in federal elections has always been to vote in Maryland's elections (their portions of the District being retroceded to Maryland if necessary) or for disaffected individuals to exercise their right of travel and move elsewhere. The failure to grasp these simple concepts and accept their implications has now resulted in a constitutional incongruity known as the 23rd Amendment. Nothing would be more fitting than for a partisan Congress to exercise precisely the power granted by the Amendment and arrogate to itself three electoral votes and reverse the outcome of a Presidential election to demonstrate that the Amendment corrupted core constitutional principles. Pgva 22:19, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The difference that I see (states vs. DC) is that the New Jersey legislature's choosing electors can reasonably be seen as a means of New Jersey appointing electors, whereas the Congress's choosing electors cannot be reasonably seen as a means of DC appointing electors. I am not a lawyer and I am not insisting that this interpretation is correct. However, I don't think that your interpretation is as obviously correct as you say. Has any constitutional scholar interpreted the Amendment this way? If you can produce evidence of this, I will take this interpretation seriously. Otherwise, as far as I know it's just the idiosyncratic view of a non-expert. Josh Cherry 23:01, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

"The New Jersey legislature's choosing electors can reasonably be seen as a means of New Jersey appointing electors, whereas the Congress's choosing electors cannot be reasonably seen as a means of DC appointing electors."

Fair enough. Because it is absurd that the 23rd Amendment empowers a place (the seat of government) rather than persons to appoint electors, I am willing to concede that point (although letting Congress speak for its own seat of government seems eminently reasonable, rather like letting a state legislature speak for the capitol building in which it resides). It is the District, however defined, and not Congress, that must appoint the electors. However, I must stand behind the remainder of my argument and reach the same result for the following reason.

The "manner" by which the District appoints electors specifies the particular process for the District to follow. But the process might simply be: "Step one: Appoint Smith, Jones, and Wu." There, that's the process. Easy. The meat of the argument remains, regardless of the specific form required for Congress to exercise its power, that the substance of that power is plenary and most certainly includes choosing specific persons as electors.

As to the matter of consulting experts, it is useful to recall that members of Congress are the final arbiters of the presidential election process. In that sense, they are the experts, and a resort to the opinions of legal scholars amounts to a fallacious argument ad verecundiam. Pgva 00:51, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The members of Congress are not the final arbiters of the constitutionality of the way they direct the appointment of electors for DC any more than they are the final arbiters of the constitutionality of any other legistlation that they pass. Suppose that Congress directed that the DC electors be chosen by a vote among white male residents of the District who are at least 21 years old. This would be struck down by the judiciary as a violation of several constitutional provisions. If Congress's choosing the DC electors itself is a violation of the 23rd Amendment, surely the judiciary has the power to intervene. Asking how legal scholars view the constitutional issue, and how they think the courts would rule, is entirely appropriate. Josh Cherry 01:29, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

"Surely the judiciary has the power to intervene."

Yet the character of that power must be very carefully examined in light of the 12th Amendment to determine its effects. Suppose that the Court, acting under the judicial power pursuant to the constitution and laws of the United States, did hear the case and render an opinion declaring the actions of Congress unconstitutional. How, under the 12th Amendment, would that opinion be enforced? As I already demonstrated, the process given in the 12th Amendment is purposefully not susceptible to judicial intervention (unless one entertains the idea of robed Supreme Court justices running the halls of Congress wielding pistols, a dangerous prospect given their age). Political consequences might very well result from ignoring the court's opinion, a factor that each member of Congress would be sure to consider in making their decision. But it would still be their decision.

I am led to recall the famous phrase from Marbury vs. Madison, "it is emphatically the province and duty of the judicial department to say what the law is in deciding justiciable cases and controversies." Okay, I added that last part, to illustrate the limitations of the principle. Congress might equally insist that it is the province and duty of the legislative department to say what the law is in performing the functions assigned to Congress by the constitution. Which department has the final say on constitutionality depends upon the nature of the situation, and it is not always the judicial department. It was entirely appropriate for the Marshall Court to exercise judicial review (against the determination of constitutionality made by Congress) to deny Marbury's writ of mandamus, for to do so was entirely within the Court's power in that case. By contrast, the Court has no power whatever in the 12th Amendment process that elects a President. The power belongs to Congress, which is free to use its own determination of constitutionality (against the one given by the Court) in choosing how best to act. If it is right for the Court to second guess Congress in performing its functions, then it is no less right for Congress to second guess the Court in performing its. Because of the 12th Amendment, the matter is genuinely nonjusticiable in that the Court's actions would be moot. Pgva 03:27, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I would like to take leave of this with the statement that I disagree with your interprettion of the 23rd Amendment. I do not read it as giving Congress the power to choose electors for DC. I see it as Congress giving the power for DC to choose electors. You can read one amendment after another and you see the same phrases over and over: "will be enforceable by Congress", "as Congress may direct", "within the limits of the power of Congress"... The whole point is that Congress is not the ruling monarch of the US. When it passes a bill, it has to go to the President. Because of that, Congress cannot pass a law. They can only pass a law limited to the power that Congress has. If the President accepts it, it becomes a temporary law. It is temporary because the Supreme Court can still toss it out - meaning that it is still limited to the power that Congress has. Therefore, the 23rd Amendment is Congress giving DC the right to have electors as long as everyone agrees that Congress has the right to do so.

I would also like to say that I agree with Pgva about the needlessness of this amendment. DC is a district, not a state. People claiming to live in DC either live in Maryland or Virginia. That is where they should vote. I worry about two things. First, those people are counted in the population of Maryland, giving it extra electoral votes. So, if DC gets a free elector, that one should be taken away from Maryland. Second, what stops these people from voting both in the DC elections and the Maryland elections? Kainaw 13:21, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

This is factually incorrect. DC is not in any sense a part of Maryland. Residents of DC are not counted toward the population of Maryland for the purpose of determining the number of Maryland representatives or electors. Residents of DC cannot vote in Maryland elections any more than residents of Virginia or California can vote in Maryland elections. Josh Cherry 16:05, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I would like say "thanks" to Josh for offering a point of view that I hadn't considered. Although my personal view is that to "appoint" amounts to nothing more than to formally name, leaving the actual choice to be determined by the process directed by Congress, I am willing to see his opinion as a reasonable interpretation. I am less sanguine about the assurance that the judiciary can interpose itself in the Presidential election process under the 12th Amendment. That the court cannot, even if it wanted to, interfere in that process seems crystal clear. To suggest otherwise admits of a grade-school understanding of judicial review in which the Supreme Court simply trumps all. This view would have surely astonished our Founding Fathers, for whom the judiciary "may truly be said to have neither FORCE nor WILL, but merely judgment ... is beyond comparison the weakest of the three departments of power ... [it] can never attack with success either of the other two ..." (Federalist 78). A faithful understanding of separation of powers must admit the possibility that the Supreme Court does not always get its way and is not the final arbiter of all things, that its edicts really can be disobeyed by the other branches, that in fact such disobedience is the only way that separation of powers can be ultimately realized in cases of judicial overreach. But I digress. The 23rd Amendment, in treating the seat of government as a body of persons, remains a constitutional incongruity. It could arguably be exploited by a determined Congress in a close presidential election. It should serve as a warning of the dangers of unintended consequences in attempting to improve upon the constitutional design, even with the best of intentions. Pgva 18:59, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Thank you for being so gracious. I'm still not clear on why you think the 12th Amendment immunizes Congress from judicial review in these matters. The powers given to Congress there involve counting electoral votes, not choosing electors. But there's a more important point. How is it different from any other part of the Constitution that gives Congress or anyone else certain powers? Section I clearly gives legislative powers to Congress. It does not follow that the courts cannot rule their legislative actions unconstitutional. Josh Cherry 16:12, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

"The powers given to Congress there involve counting electoral votes, not choosing electors."

The power to count must imply the power to decide which contested electoral ballots to include when counting (for support of this view, see 3 U.S.C. 15). I simply assume that were Congress to interpret its 23rd Amendment power as inclusive of choosing its own slate of electors, then it would also choose to resolve any contest in favor of its own electors' ballots.

"How is it different from any other part of the Constitution that gives Congress or anyone else certain powers?"

The difference I see is that when Congress counts electoral votes under the 12th Amendment, it is performing a function different in kind from the ordinary act of legislating that requires no judicial assent to achieve its purpose. Even were the Supreme Court to issue a declaratory judgment in the matter, it would still be Congress counting the votes and the winner of that count would go on to be President according to the Amendment. To be clear, the courts could rule it unconstitutional, but that ruling would have only the force or effect that Congress would choose to give it - in my scenario, they would ignore the ruling. Pgva 18:02, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Squeezing a direct popular election out of the current system

Should this be on its own page? This article is about the Electoral College, not ways to circumvent it. Dubc0724 18:57, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Squeezing a national popular vote out of the current system by changing state election law no more "circumvents" the Electoral College than any other proposal for a national popular vote. I am more sympathetic to the view that all reform proposals be split into another article, since there are so many and since there continues to be a fair amount of controversy surrounding which ones to include here. I am, however, steadfastly opposed to any statement that a constititional amendment is required to change the current system (which could reappear as soon as the 'squeezing' section is removed) . As the 'squeezing' alternative proves, that is simply a falsehood. --Pgva 04:44, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Per state resource allocations for campaigns

In the article is states "They do of course pour the bulk of their resources into "battleground states" which are equally divided between the two major parties--- but the large battleground states get more resources than the smaller ones, not fewer."

Is this per person, or total, because that makes a huge difference in the argument made here. Of course more resources would be poured into states with large populations, but is this per capita or what? Ed Sanville 13:13, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

He's arguing that more resources are poored into states that often vote different ways than states who usually vote one way. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.130.60.100 (talk • contribs).

Who's in it?

I would like to know how much the electoral delgates get renumerated? Suburban Boy 14:26, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I imagine by renumerated you are asking how the states get the number of electors they possess? States are allowed a number of presidential electors equal to their representation in Congress. For instance, Texas currently has 32 representatives in the House and 2 Senators, equaling a total of 34 representatives. Thus, they receive a total 34 electoral votes. Seats in the House are reapportioned to the States every 10 years in consequence of the census to reflect changes in population amongst the States. This reapportionment of House seats affects the number of electors, changing in tandem with the State's gain or loss. (e.g. after the reapportionment, if North Carolina gained 2 seats in the House, NC then gets 2 extra electoral votes). The smallest number of electors a State can have is 3, as the Constitution guarantees each State 2 senators and 1 House seat. Foofighter20x 00:35, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

He was asking how much they get paid. Alsee 03:55, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

This has probably been brought up before, but is there any way to know who's actually on the Electoral College? Therequiembellishere 00:38, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

No one is ever truly "on" the Electoral College as it is a completely transitory body. What I mean is: the electoral college is elected solely for the purpose of voting for President and Vice-President. Once the college has completed it's constitutional task, it then disbands until the next presidential election, when new electors are chosen. If you are interested as to who will be selected as electors for the next Presidential election, wait until late in the summer before the next presidential election and then contact the office of your State's Secretary of State, as they will have a list (known as a slate) of names the political parties have nominated to be electors for their presidential candidate. Foofighter20x 00:35, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Alternative Systems

"...Some have argued that the French system creates problems of its own; it is possible that the initial vote becomes divided up between so many candidates that someone who is highly undesirable to most voters can make it to the second round of voting, as occurred in 2002 with the rise of candidate Jean-Marie Le Pen to the runoff election..."

"Highly undesirable" is a wrong term: if a candidate got enough votes to go to the second round, it means that a large number of voters "desires" the candidate to be president!

The article on Jean-Marie Le Pen explains why the French considered him highly undesirable. He is used as an example of the flaws in the French system because he received 16.8% of the vote. He got the second round of elections due the fact that there were so many people running. The issue is that with more people running, the cutoff percent potentially gets lower and lower until you could possible have a guy make it to the second round with less than 1% of the vote (I admit that it would take half of France to run for election to get that low - but this is an extreme examples). Kainaw 19:01, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Surely this is a specious argument? As the first comment points out 16% of voters supported Le Pen in the first round - a large number of people. In the second round he increased his support to only 17.8% and was soundly defeated by Chirac. So, while the majority of the French do see him as unsuitable, 17.8% see him as suitable - but that isn't enough to elect him (or anywhere near it). It in no way invalidates the process. The popular choice was elected (unlike the US system where a president doesn't need to get a majority popular vote to win). --Nickj69 14:13, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Detractor argument: Use of the term "disenfranchise"

I do not think the use of the term 'disenfranchise' is appropriately used in the section of the article presenting the arguments against the Electoral College system.

Disenfranchise is to 'deprive of the right to vote.' Voters who vote in the minority in a given state, while deprived of seeing their candidate supported in the electoral college, are not by any means deprived of their right to cast a vote.

In our system, the electoral college sets up mini-elections that are rolled up into a larger election. Minority-candidate voters in a particular state are not disenfranchised just as minority-candidate voters would not be disenfranchised in a popular-vote election.

The idea that an large-state resident's vote "counts less" than a small-state resident's is a fair statement to make; however, I believe that the benefits of balancing the numeric and geographic components of public opinion outweigh the perceived inequity of not having a one citizen/one vote for president election.

---

The article states that Gore/Liebermann had "6 unpopular votes". Is this someone's idea of a joke or does this term mean something? Cigarette 13:42, 3 Nov 2004

---

the See Also section contains the following:

The statement Bush/Cheney won the electoral vote with 271 votes by cheating. is false. It is an emotional response not based on fact.

I assume this is more vandalism. It appears this article has restricted editing or else I would elminate the passage myself. Funkyj 01:23, 2004 Nov 4 (UTC)

Two persons

Following is an email sent to webmaster@wikipedia.org. I will reply to the email by giving him the standard WP:BB line and directing him to this talk page. -- Tim Starling 00:12, Nov 5, 2004 (UTC)

Subject: article on the Electoral College (U.S.)
From: Carl Moore
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 14:07:50 EST
To: webmaster@wikipedia.org

I see "Originally, each elector voted for two persons." That is STILL true!!! What changed was that the 12th Amendment calls for each elector to vote for 1 person as president and 1 person as vice president. Perhaps say "Originally, each elector voted for two persons without specifying president or vice president."

Introduced some more subheadings and some more points to the different arguments

Hello all, I just introduced a number of subheadings into the text to divide it up more clearly. I also introduced a number of diverse additional points to different aspects of the Pro-and-Con arguments and slightly reordered some paragraphs. I believe the additional material to be factual and NPOV, and I believe the subheadings increase clarity. I hope this is OK with the other contributors. All the best, -- 84.57.79.215 17:27, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Introduction paragragh has been repeated

Look at the top of the article, its there, twice. My inexperince at editing means im mising ot on how to change it so there it is there only once. Chrismullan

That's not all - almost the entire article is repeated twice. I don't want to pick through all the edits to see which is the most up-to-date, so I'm simply removing the second half of the repetition. This has been caused by people now knowing how to revert. If you want to revert, go to the history, click on the date of the version that you want to revert to, click Edit This Page (you will see a warning that it is an old version), and save it. Don't try to cut and paste old versions on top of new ones. Kainaw 15:33, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The E College and Third Parties

I don't understand how the electoral college stifles third parties. Even if there were a direct election, a third party candidate's 19 percent of the vote would still translate into 0 percent of political power. The simple fact is that presidential power cannot be divided. Imagine if Ross Perot had won 19 percet of the electoral college, 102 votes, he still would have lost.

As long as there is a unipersonal executive, a presidential election is always going to be winner take all.

Where winner take all is relevant in explaing our lack of third parties is in legislatures.

No other post is elected by an e college in the US, yet third party victories are still exceedingly rare. (IIRC, there are eight third party state legislators right now, out of 8,000. Four of those eight are in Burlington, VT)

dinopup

In the way that all but 2 of the states handle the electoral college, third parties cannot get any electoral votes. The states use a plurality to give all of the electoral votes to one candidate. For a third party candidate to win, that candidate must get more votes in the entire state than any other candidate. While it is possible (and it has happened in the past), it is not probable.

Now, consider the two states that use allot the electoral votes to regions within the state - mini electoral colleges. It is much more probable for a third party candidate to gain a plurality in a smaller region and therefore gain an electoral vote in one region of one of those states.

When it comes down to it, an electoral college makes it easier for a third party candidate to get a larger vote margin because the candidate has the ability to target low-populated areas that count just as much as higher populated ones. However, the United States isn't using an electoral college inside the states themselves (except 2). So, that popular vote is basically barring them from the electoral vote. Kainaw 15:20, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Even if winner take all by state were changed to proportional allocation, or district allocation, a third party candidate would still be a long way from 269 votes. What difference would it make if a Perot or Nader could win electoral votes? They still would lose the elections. Wallace, Thurmond, and TR won e votes, and their third parties still disintegrated.

If we had district allocation, and a Green won districts like Berkeley, CA or Dane County, Wisconsin, then the Green party would be an asterisk to the electoral vote, just like it is an asterisk to the popular vote. It would do little to make the Green party an enduring, significant party. What the US needs to have non-trivial third parties is proportional representation for legislative races. In legislative races, getting 5 % of the seats means getting 5 % of the power. In the electoral college, since the presidency cannot be divided, getting 5% of the e votes means getting 0 % of the power.

It is true that a third party doesn't stand a chance of becoming President of the U.S. - regardless of the voting system. The U.S. is a two-party nation. That is not abnormal. Humans eventually boil everything down to two options: us and them, black and white, liberal and conservative...

You are correct in pointing out that there is easily more third party representation in Congress. I feel that the third party representation in Congress justifies the electoral system. While the country as a whole hasn't backed a third party candidate, small parts of the population may be represented in Congress. I feel that is how the founding fathers designed the system.

Disclaimer: The following paragraph is my opinion and I have yet to find someone who isn't offended by my opinion that the President is the least powerful person in government.

If you research the founding fathers, you will find that they were against political parties. That is why it was initially designed so that one party could get President and another could get Vice-President. But, it doesn't end there. The President, over time, has become a figurehead. What power does the President really have that isn't controlled by Congress? Appoint a judge to the Supreme Court? Not without Congress' approval. Declare war? Not without Congress' approval. Cut taxes? Not without Congress' approval. Veto Congress? Not without Congress' approval in the form of not overriding his veto. When it comes down to it, the President has the power to decide how to decorate the White House - as long as it is within the budget set by Congress. Kainaw 21:39, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Regardless of what was intended, the very structure of the original Electoral College made it almost certain that the President and Vice-President would be of the same party. The mistake was giving electors two votes. If they had only one vote, no political party would ever run two candidates, because they'd split their vote; therefore, the President and VP would always be from different parties. But when electors have two votes, it's in a party's best interest to run two candidates, and encourage electors to vote for both of them.

Actually the ORIGINAL E party system guaranteed opposing candidates in the president and vice presidential positions because everyone was running for president. Under the new system (12th amendment) you absolutely guarantee that there will be one party in the white house.

The EC stifles third parties and independents in this way: take for example, an independent that wins a couple states outright, and then gets a substantial, but losing, percentage in most other states. They may receive a majority popular vote, but will receive much fewer EC votes, as the votes they receive in states they didn't carry are effectively thrown out. In a Maine/Nebraska system, they would receive some EC votes in the states they didn't carry, and across the board, could still receive a majority. JeremyMcCracken 14:14, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Interesting that you use an example that happened to a main party candidate in 2000: Gore. In the Nebraska/Maine System, 2 votes go to the winner of the state (representing the "Senate" electoral votes). The remaining votes are split based on the percentage of votes. If a state has only 3 or 4 electoral votes, then all the votes will still go for one candidate. If it is a state of 5 electoral votes, then the most the loser cna expect to get is 1 electoral vote. On top of that there is the right of the States to choose how the votes are apportioned. If they choose to apportion all their votes to the winner, then that is their right. In addition, those states that have the most votes (California, Texas, New York, Pennsylvania) would lose their status as a state in which candidates must campaign. For example: State X and State Y both have 10 electoral votes, States A, B, C, and D, have 4 votes. All are hotly contested and are a dead heat right up until the polls and the main party candidates can visit only 5 of the 6 before the polls open. State X, however is a Neb/Maine system state. Since the projected gain from visiting States A, B, C, D, and Y is 26 votes to 10. — BQZip01 — ^talk 15:30, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Pros and cons

On January 2, User:Susurrus spun off the "Pro and Con" section to the article Pros and Cons of the U.S. Electoral College. Then some user (I don't know who anymore as they didn't write anything on the talk page and the comments in the history went to the Great Bit-Bucket in the Sky) wrote that they would delete this article because its content was duplicated in this article. Now I want to make it clear: the content was not duplicated, because Susurrus had removed the content from this article when it was spun off. Nonetheless, even though I noted the fact that the content was non-duplicative on the talk page for "Pros and Cons of the U.S. Electoral College", I found today that the article had been removed. Therefore, I have restored the "Pros and cons" section to this article.

— DLJessup 02:25, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Does EC favor small or large states?

The article states several times that the EC favores small states. It's certainly obvious, since each state gets 2 senators regardless of population, that small states get more electoral votes per capita. I don't think it's obvious that it follows that voters in small states have more voting power. In fact, I don't even think it's true. Campaign strategists don't seem to think it's true either if you take ad dollars per capita or campaign stops per capita as any indicator. If it is true then it needs some mathematical justification.

Don't try to draw a relation between campaign financing and voting power. Money goes to areas that are not clearly Democrat or Republican - not to areas where there is the Electoral Vote/Population ration is higher. Kainaw 01:00, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

In a winner-take-all voting system, votes per capita is a poor measure of voting power. To illustrate this, imagine that the U.S. consisted only of the 14 smallest states plus California and D.C. Even though California would have the fewest per-capita electoral votes, it would quite obviously have the greatest voting power: The other 15 states wouldn't matter at all!

According to the Banzhaf Power Index, California voters are the most powerful and Montana voters are the least powerful. (But note that this assumes that all 51 "states" are competitive.) DanBishop 02:35, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Restored "Pros and Cons" again

Hello, I just restored the "Pros and Cons" section, which had been deleted without comment again on March 9 (why delete it?) -- 84.58.45.131 23:12, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Request for references

Hi, I am working to encourage implementation of the goals of the Wikipedia:Verifiability policy. Part of that is to make sure articles cite their sources. This is particularly important for featured articles, since they are a prominent part of Wikipedia. The Fact and Reference Check Project has more information. Thank you, and please leave me a message when a few references have been added to the article. - Taxman 18:28, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)