Talk:Eärendil and Elwing

Unitlted

Doesn't Aragorn or Sam chant a poem about Eärendil in LOTR?

Yes, but we have enough quotes already. -Smack 04:56, 11 Oct 2003 (UTC)

It was Bilbo. And it's a really short poem! Only about 3 or 4 pages long... Carcharoth 00:54, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I understand that the poem in LotR is only a first draft, and that a longer, more polished and complete version exists which was never published. Does anyone know about this? 173.13.153.50 (talk) 22:02, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

"First draft" isn't really accurate; the published poem is quite developed and was in fact the twelfth version, not counting the earlier "Errantry" versions. However there was indeed a further development of the poem after the twelfth version, in three more versions. Apparently the last version, intended to be published, was mislaid and the earlier version was published instead. The final version can be read in The Treason of Isengard. Mnudelman (talk) 21:10, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

Dost thou mean "Eärendil the mariner"?--Aaronsdavis (talk) 14:37, 18 April 2011 (UTC)--Aaronsdavis (talk) 14:37, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

The scholarly consensus currently is that Cynewulf did not compose the poem commonly referred to as “Christ 1,” which is the poem where Tolkien found his inspiration for the name. I recommend removing the attribution to Cynewulf. Also, the term “Anglo-Saxon” to refer to the language spoken in early medieval England has been shown to be inaccurate as they didn’t refer to themselves as “Anglo-Saxon.” This term was created in the 19th century and has problematic racist and nationalist implications. It has recently fallen out of use by scholars. I recommend changing all mentions of “Anglo-Saxon” to “Old English.” — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8800:2183:9900:8C6F:D873:E2C8:77C6 (talk) 03:11, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

"Aerandir" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Aerandir. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 August 14#Aerandir until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Hog Farm _Bacon 20:20, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

"Eärnil" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Eärnil. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 January 14#Eärnil until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Hildeoc (talk) 11:49, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Eärendil and Elwing/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: RockMagnetist (talk · contribs) 18:31, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

I am going to review this article. RockMagnetist(talk) 18:31, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

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My overall impression is good and I don't think this is going to take very long.

Many thanks. Chiswick Chap (talk) 18:44, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):

   • A few sources are not properly cited: The Return of the King, The Book of Lost Tales 2, and The History of Middle-earth are just links to Wikipedia articles.

   • Linked those to sources for you.

   • The citation for Pearl (Secondary ref. 14) is pretty skimpy. You should probably add the (unknown) author and translator at a minimum.

   • Author and translator added.

   • A couple of comments that do not affect the outcome of this review: I think the division of references into primary and secondary sources is only of interest to a Wikipedia reviewer, and not necessary. Also, where the citations are referring to one of the references in Sources, a citation anchor would be more useful than a redundant Wikilink (Primary refs 1,2,3,5).

   • Noted. It may be worth mentioning that the WikiProject had major issues with (lack of) secondary sourcing, now happily mainly a thing of the past.

   • I cannot access the contents of Carpenter's bio, so I'm adding other sources where I can.

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

Comments

Fictional history

This section is so lacking in context that is means almost nothing to someone who is not already a serious Tolkien geek. It needs some basics like: What age is this, and how does it relate to the age that The Lord of the Rings takes place in? What is the geography? (File:Sketch Map of Beleriand.svg might help with this.) What were the major events that were relevant to the lives of these characters, what were the peoples and who were the major characters?

• Led in with some context on Elves and Men in the First Age of Middle-earth.

Just to give some examples of my confusion as I'm reading this:

• which is the elf, Tuor or Idril?
  • Added. The family tree is just below.
• what people lived in Gondolin?
  • Added.
• who sacked Gondolin and why?
  • Added. Maybe why is a bridge too far for this context.
• where was Arvernien relative to Gondolin and what people lived there?
  • Added map, written a caption on that.
• who was Morgoth and why did Men and Elves need aid against him?
  • Glossed.
• what was the Silmaril and why did Beren want it?
  • Led in with a brief account...
• who were the "the remaining sons of Fëanor" and why did they care about the Silmaril?
  • No need to go far into that here; just said "Fëanor's sons". Described.
• what was Valinor?
  • Glossed.
• what were the Valar?
  • Glossed.
• who was Manwe? Why was a punishment of death the default response to this errand?
  • Glossed.

I don't think a lot of detail is needed, but the reader needs to know they should care about any of this. Some space can be freed up by cutting the extended quote, which adds little to the story, and replacing it by a summary sentence.

• • We aren't short of space, and the quotation provides both the central element of the story and a flavour of the story's style.

I think it's worth adding that I have read Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion, the latter a long time ago, and knew some of the answers at one time, so I'm probably your baseline for likely readers of this article. RockMagnetist(talk) 20:52, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

• All good suggestions, have done a bit of reshaping to make it a bit more approachable. Chiswick Chap (talk) 21:55, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Looks great! All we need now is a couple of citations for the first two paragraphs of this section. RockMagnetist(talk) 05:02, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

I think I'll go ahead and sign off on this, and trust you to add those citations. Nice work! RockMagnetist(talk) 05:08, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Many thanks, will do. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:14, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 19:11, 14 May 2023 (UTC)