User:Tim Starling/Cold turkey IRC log

#wikimedia 2005-01-25

<GerardM> This is true with developper time at this momen already. Tim Starling does not like any project but wikipedia. That is his choise and nobody can tell him no as it is his time
<dannyisme> well, i must go to work
<GerardM> I cannot have money spend on wiktionary if I gave money.
<TimStarling> I'm not the only one
<GerardM> Tim, I do not object. I am stating it as a fact.
<TimStarling> if someone wanted $10,000 to be spent on hardware for wikinews, I don't know if you'd even be able to get someone to install linux on them
<zwitter> GerardM> I don't think anyone would disagree that Tim's choice harms wikinews from not having him work on it. so why should all projects be harmed by increasing this kind of favouritism?
<TimStarling> it would have to be $2000 for hardware and $8000 for maintenance
<zwitter> (I actually agree with Tim, but that still doesn't mean it's a good thing)
<dannyisme> bye all
* dannyisme (dannyisme@pool-70-23-38-197.ny325.east.verizon.net) has left #wikimedia
<GerardM> Have you read my article on Meta Tim ?
<TimStarling> not really
<GerardM> So why do you comment withour knowing what I am on about.
<TimStarling> oh actually yes
<TimStarling> I was going to say I glanced over it, but looking at it again, I think I know most of what's on there
<GerardM> Please read it carefully because otherwise we are wasting our time.
<TimStarling> I see
<TimStarling> did I misrepresent your views in some way?
<TimStarling> or are you just being difficult?
<GerardM> The thing is if you have not read it properly we are not talking about the same thing. And that is a waste of time and effort.
<TimStarling> yep
<TimStarling> "So if someone is entitled to EUR 5000,-. It is then up to him what he does with this money. If he so chooses, he can have it payed to him. He may have to pay income tax on this money. He can also choose to use this money within the wikimedia organisation for a project that he favours."
<TimStarling> ok you're right, I should have read this
<TimStarling> you know my views on developer payment don't you?
<GerardM> It would also be on approved projects by the board
<Jamesday> GerardM, I've made some comments and suggested types
<TimStarling> who is going to do this development work anyway, once you have the money?
<TimStarling> the foundation offerred money for a membership interface maybe 3 months ago, and nobody has done it
<zwitter> how much money did they actually offer?
<TimStarling> they asked for offers
<GerardM> Yes, but you do appreciate that there is money to be had for programming. With the increasing growth of ALL the projects there is an increased need for funding. So if we get money for maintenance and when Wikinews maintenance equals mediawiki maintenance it is mediawiki maintenance payes for by wikinews fans.
<TimStarling> I gave them a figure, but I'm not sure when I'll get around to doing it
<TimStarling> they're asking for insane security that I didn't budget for properly
<Jamesday> GerardM, how much is better tuned adn faster database servers worth?
* setuid (japh@gnu-designs.com) has joined #wikimedia
<Jamesday> Or how much is Tim writing something worth?
<setuid> Is there a wiki* for Medical texts? therapeutic guidelines and such?
<Jamesday> Why not cut out hte Foundation and Foundation politics and donate to the people doing it instead?
<setuid> ...or perhaps a better channel to ask.
<zwitter> setuid> no. except maybe wikibooks.
<GerardM> It is beyond a price. If it where up to me and if we had the money we had several of the developers as employees
<TimStarling> you can't pay me
<zwitter> we can't afford to pay several of the developers
<setuid> zwitter: There should be a channel here for that
<zwitter> setuid> for what?
<setuid> zwitter: wikibooks
<zwitter> yes, there probably should
<TimStarling> I really only give lip-service to this point of view these days, but in theory I'm attempting to follow a career in physics
<GerardM> Tim it is not that I PAY you, I would make sure that you have the security of a job and have you continue to do the things that you do eminently well.
<TimStarling> and I don't really want to drop out of it at this point
<Jamesday> Gerard, what's it worth for me not toa ccept what is now 5 empoloyees of one company suggesting that I work for that company?
<Jamesday> Id' prefer to work on the projects:)
<Jamesday> So I do.
* Tietew (~tietew-ir@124.130.244.43.ap.yournet.ne.jp) Quit ("NO CARRIER"�)
<Jamesday> But it's the sort of thing where it's very easy to push too hard for somenthing volunteers don't want an lose them - there are quite a few things the Foundation could do which would upset me enough taht I'd leave insteead of continuing.
* setuid has been working for his community for a decade, without a cent... because he believes in it, and being an unemployed Linux/embedded/security developer for the last 4 years hasn't made things easier either. </duck>
<Jamesday> It's happened recently in another case - Jimbo likes one particularr thing and we now have one less developer.
<TimStarling> Wikipedia has pretty much destroyed my life, it's only a token comfort that I don't get paid for it so if I try to work on Wikipedia full time I'll starve
<Jamesday> setuid, good for you:)
<TimStarling> maybe I should try to be more materialistic
<TimStarling> people say that grows on you
<setuid> like algae
<Jamesday> Direct cause and effect: Jimbo insisted on an inefficient solution and we have one less developer (and I'm also less interested, because I have to work more as a result and can't do other things)
<GerardM> Tim if it were up to me you would earn a decent living and do the mediawiki thing.
<Jamesday> What's that sort of negative reward worth?
<GerardM> which negative reward ?
<Jamesday> GerardM, you know that bounties have been tried? Why did they fail?
<Jamesday> The negative reward of not choosing hte best solution.
<Jamesday> It's really hard for money to compensate for such things - they caused me to leave one paying job.
<TimStarling> Wikipedia is a technical job
<TimStarling> it's rewarding but it's easy
<Jamesday> Ti, full time and overtime aswell:)
<Jamesday> Easy in some ways, not in some others.
<TimStarling> the fact that I'm working on it is an indication of laziness
<Jamesday> I read the proposal and I thought "what about those who use the project but arent' listed, so are perhaps trolls?
<Jamesday> Then I look at what I know interests Gerard an wonder how much is intended to support that rather than other things
<Jamesday> And I look at the lack of success of offerin goney..
<GerardM> The users of the wikimedia projects I missed.
<Jamesday> but I also look ath esuccess of the thank you money in the brion laptop fund, whcih appears to have helped to keep brion happy.
<Jamesday> Which is part of why I like that sort of approach - it seems to have worked:)
* setuid is off to finish his wiki*->Plucker conversions
* setuid (japh@gnu-designs.com) has left #wikimedia ("Client Exiting"�)
<TimStarling> this is hard for me, I don't know why I'm here
<TimStarling> poor impulse control, lack of conscientiousness
<waerth> so as I see in this discussion ... both Tim and Jamesday are opposed to getting paid for what they love doing?
<GerardM> On 2th of Februari I will be speaking to the Kennisnet people. They are looking for a mediawiki kind of application. I am sure that they will need certain features and I am sure that they will either program them or look for people programming them. So they have someone work on the code, is that good/bad/indifferent ?
<waerth> Or is it being afraid to be forced to do things they might not like
<GerardM> They may want to host squids and they would be on serfnet .. Is that good/bad/indifferent ?
<TimStarling> the fact that I'm working on Wikipedia indicates a horrible failure for me, it's a feeling I'm not too fond of
<Jamesday> GerardM, I'm not opposed to getting paid for _what I love doing_.
<Jamesday> It's getting paid to work inefficiently which woudl bother me.
<GerardM> They are interested in having great performance, they may even be willing to help technically of financially in improving our systems.
<Jamesday> Or getting paid to work on things when I know other thigns are more important.
<zwitter> it would annoy me to be paid for doing things under particular imposed restrictions.
<waerth> ok jamesday got your point
<zwitter> at the moment i simply don't do those things
<Jamesday> Part of the problem is that paying me to do those things woudl discourage me:)
<waerth> so you would be more willing if it was said that the developers get a monthly reward for what they did instead of trying to funnel their efforts in certain directions?
<Jamesday> Because I'd see it as wrong.
<Jamesday> waerth, yes
<waerth> I certainly understan that
<zwitter> monthly reward doesn't sound all that useful
<Jamesday> Because between us we do a good job of selecting the most importatn tasks and gettin ghtem done.
<Jamesday> Even if it's frustrating to those with less urgent tasks.
<zwitter> not unless it's enough to actually live on
<Jamesday> zwitter, depends what it is:)
<GerardM> Have I interfered with what you do? I could have, have some expertise but I did not as I think you do a wonderfull job. I appreciate the hard work, and I see that you try to do the best possible with limited resources..
<waerth> so what would you need Kate (Zwitter) to actually life on?
<Jamesday> If UK unemployed, paying the max allowed without affectig benefits for example, might be of value.
<GerardM> It is cool when you work on maintenance, but there is also need for new functionality.
<Jamesday> GerardM, no, but I'm not sure you understand the motives of the developers.
* Future|weg is now known as FutureCrash
<GerardM> Functionality lke wikidata
<Jamesday> Notice Tim, zwitter and I all telling you that what you're suggesting is unlikely to encourage us and migh tdiscourage us?
<waerth> gerardm it is clear that you cannot force people to do things they do not like
<zwitter> waerth> i would be willing to work full time for £9000pa (about $17000). that's a very small amount for that kind of work in either the UK or US market job, but it's still money that isn't being spent on servers.
* brainless (~some@dialin-77250.ewetel.net) has joined #wikimedia
<TimStarling> the only chance you have of getting something for your money is by hiring from the outside
<TimStarling> and hiring someone to do a job which is psychologically distinct from ours
<zwitter> my opinion is that it's not worth the money for the WMF to employ me full time
<zwitter> and i'm not interested in token amounts, so... developer rewards haven't been very interesting to me so far
<Jamesday> Tim, well, not necessarily - I sort of like some aspects of wikidata - trouble is, I'd want to pickt he implementation I thought best and what happens if whoever is paying money disagrees?:)
<waerth> zwitter a month ???
<zwitter> no, a year
<Jamesday> And I'm not sure I'd think any amount likely to happen is worth it as paid work.
<waerth> ok
* sannse is now known as sannse_away
<TimStarling> maybe I should take a break from Wikipedia
<GerardM> I have stated before that I think that would be cool to have several of the developpers employed by the foundation. At some stage we NEED it because the problems will become increasingly difficult
<Jamesday> warth, consider amounts sufficient tpo pay rent, food, internet connection and some other things.
<GerardM> You would be payed by the foundation
<Jamesday> That is, enough to volunteer full time:)
<GerardM> So who can tell you different
<Jamesday> Employed by can be a problem - you see, employers tend to want to direct what you do.
<Jamesday> While thank you payments tend to be for doin gwhat you think is best.
<Jamesday> And I'd prefer the developers to do what they think best.
<Jamesday> That is: I think it's harder to persuade a developer to do something counterproductive than it is to persuade the board.
<GerardM> The point is that if someone writes software like wikidata, i have a set of requirements. How they are met is not THAT much intrest to me as long as the functional requirements are met.
<Jamesday> So I prefer the developers deciding.
<Jamesday> GerardM, have you written those down?
<Jamesday> If you haven't, please do.
<GerardM> Yes.
<waerth> Ok, this is how I see it. Most large volunteer foundations have a couple of paid positions
<Jamesday> how many people agree with you and how many disagree?
<Jamesday> and would you accept a developer sorting out the disagreements and findin ghte solution which seems best?
<waerth> now how do we figure out a way to keep the developers happy with that?
<waerth> as we do not want to loose anyone of them!
<waerth> I love you all even though I am bitching sometimes
<Jamesday> waerth, perosnally? I'd rather see the same money spread around the whole team.
<Jamesday> And anyone who doesn't want it can say what to do with it.
<waerth> yes jamesday I agree with you there
<TimStarling> I don't want to hear that
<TimStarling> I want to leave
* Disconnected
Session Close: Mon Jan 24 23:41:49 2005