Talk:Northern and southern China

Untitled

The identification of the Huai River as the historical boundary between north and south China is spot on. However, in modern China the boundary is generally perceived as the Yangtze River. Perhaps a note on this should be incorporated. Bathrobe — Preceding undated comment added 00:26, 17 February 2005 (UTC)

The split into North China and South China

Why is the split necessary at all? The split off articles are identical to the original article, which is pointless. This current article is more about the north-south split itself in any case; after all, the two concepts are basically defined in contrast to each other, and this article focuses on that by describing what distinguishes the two halves. I don't see why information about each of the two regions can't be presented in this current, merged form. -- ran (talk) 02:37, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)

North and south?

Should it be northern and southern instead? :-) — Instantnood 13:12, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, it probably should... -- ran (talk) 13:31, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

North and south sounds like talking about two countries, like those divided ones. :-D — Instantnood 13:47, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes, it sounds like North Korea and South Korea. -- ran (talk) 02:32, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Well China here is not talking about state(s), but a geographical region. ;-) "North and South" also reminds me of the rich and poor divide. — Instantnood 07:08, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

I think there're some genetic differences as done by scientists on differences between Northern and Southern Chinese. The Hans are not as homogenous as they would like to think. Mandel 01:25, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Humans are 99.9% genetically similar to Chimpanzees. Does it matter if you are 0.000001% difference within an ethnicity? 64.18.152.49 (talk) 12:36, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

The genetic differences are not limited to the so call Northern and Sourthern divide. Also the concept of the northern and sourthern are different to different groups of people. For an example people from Shanghai (the Shanghaians) see themself as Sourtherners, but the Cantonese will never see them as Sourtherners. Instead, the Cantonese people see the Shanghaians (people from Shanghai) more like aliens from the north. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.106.19.148 (talk) 11:05, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Cultural Differences?

What about a short paragraph summarizing the cultural differences between Northern and Southern Chinese? Any experts on Chinese culture want to give it a shot? theboogeyman 05:29, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

I understand at least Fujian and Guangdong have radically different customs and often folk beliefs from the general "northern" Chinese. For instance, much of the Chinese New Year foods in Hong Kong, which inherited them from Canton/Guangzhou, have no parallels in the north. Most Cantonese people tend to have more folk superstitions not shared by the north, and a majority of the colloquial slangs in Cantonese are lost in translation outside Guangdong. In a curious twist, the northern Chinese are far more uncomfortable with the use of Cantonese language in their presence.

Chinese New Years FOOD? Of course cuisine is different in different regions of China, but that is expected for a country as large as China. Folk superstition is not closely followed post-Communist era in China. 64.18.152.49 (talk) 12:41, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

But bear in mind that for most northern Chinese, at least those in Peking/Beijing and the Northeast, "southern China" only refers to Shanghai, Jiangsu and Zhejiang provinces. Guangdong is called "highland/far south" (Ling Nan). Conversely, for Cantonese people everything north of Guangdong, even rice-eating areas including Sichuan province, Shanghai, Jiangsu and Zhejiang provinces and sometimes Fujian province as well, are deemed as "northern". --JNZ 23:58, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

To the Cantonese people, Fujianese are considered as Southern Chinese. The people who live north of the Yangtze River, are Northern Chinese. Sonic99 (talk) 04:33, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

When people are talking about the word Cantonese, what does that usually mean? As far as I can tell, it should all be 廣府人 and 廣府話 centric. In other word, it should not include non-廣府人 or non-廣府話 Guangdonese people or languages. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.106.19.148 (talk) 11:19, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

South China

South China redirects here, Northern and southern China, but it is somehow not desirable. In many case South China means 華南 or 南華, a region of South China, just like 華東 (East China), 華北 (North China), 東北 (Northeast China), 西南 (Southwest China), 華中 (Central China) and so on. But the article suddenly jumps to the comparison of Northern and southern China. It is simply not what South China means. — HenryLi (Talk) 07:57, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

if you read right above you you'd know why, as for what you are refering to, yes it would most likely be better for South China to redirect to geography of China or something. --1698 07:05, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Northern/Southern stereotypes

Source added: Eberhard, Wolfram (1965). "Chinese Regional Stereotypes." Asian Survey, vol. 5, no. 12 (December 1965), pp. 596-608. This not only presents 20th century survey data, but also chronicles stereotypes in the historical record in various periods of Chinese history dating back to 400 B.C. Badagnani 04:04, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Another source added: Morgan, Stephen L. (2000). "Richer and Taller: Stature and Living Standards in China, 1979-1995." The China Journal, no. 44 (July 2000), pp. 1-39. Badagnani 04:14, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

This is so bullcrap! Stereotyping people is wrong. It's Wrong! 128.226.170.133 23:58, 15 September 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.226.170.133 (talk • contribs) 23:57, 15 September 2007

It's not a stereotype to say southerners are smaller, skinnier, and darker or that northerners are bigger, taller, etc. It's a fact. --Xiaogoudelaohu (talk) 07:33, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

True, but this article is all about the way Chinese class themselves into two separate groups and thus I think it's important to include this section as it describes how each group views the other (and possibly to a lesser degree themselves). Though it might be politically incorrect to use such stereotypes, including them in an encyclopaedia article is not, especially when they are historically important. Also, what is "mincemeat" supposed to mean? I'm familiar with the cooking ingredient, as well as the slang term as in "to destroy" but neither of those definitions make any sense in this context. Urban Dictionary doesn't help either. In this context, is it supposed mean an extreme outburst of emotion? Could someone please use a more accessible term? Serrin (talk) 17:12, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Look at this way, Americans divide themselves at the MD line too, and there are obvious stereotypes of a Northerner (American) and a Southerner (American). (talk) 10:47, 24 February 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.126.77.81 (talk)

That's a relatively good comparison. In America, "American" is not an ethnicity, nor is "Han" an ethnicity in China. These are both used to describe people who live in the country, speak the same language, and practice more or less the same culture (with perhaps slight differences around the country). Genetically speaking, in the north of the US, there are more immigrants from other countries, so more people have darker hair, brown eyes, etc., whereas in the south, people are more of English, Irish, French descent. China is similar, though not because of immigration, but because of historical migrations and settling of people. In the north, people are descended from various nomadic tribes from northern and central Asia such as Huns, Xianbei, Turks, Khitans, Jurchens, Mongols, Manchus, and many others. In the south lived the "Yue" people who are like Vietnamese, Thai, et al. Today, they live in the same country, their national language is Putonghua, and they practice the same culture, even if they have a different lineage.

There are many differences genetically, culturally, as well as linguistically between Chinese from north to south (although they are all called "Han") so acknowledging this difference has nothing to do with racism, prejudice, or anything else unless someone calls one superior to another (which would be an entirely different case). --Xiaogoudelaohu (talk) 20:44, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Comparison of Southern Chinese to Southeast Asians

This is to address the addition of the line within the Southern Chinese stereotypes that "they resemble other Southeast Asians". While you can imply that Southern Chinese share features that can be similar to Southeast Asians, I have to say that the formation of such sentence was done very poorly. To say they resemble other southeast Asians would be to imply that the southern Chinese were indeed in the southeast Asian category all along. That point is very debatable and controversial. Some may have strong views on that considering there have been wars fought over it. It would have been far better to have said it without the "other". If any others feel the need to add that line in, then it would also be necessary to add an additional stereotypes to the Northern Chinese category, perhaps bringing up their Mongolian or Manchurian neighbors. Otherwise it would seem that this is going towards a more prejudiced area. To try to maintain as much of an unbiased page as much as possible, I have deleted that particular sentence.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Ludacris321 (talk • contribs) 22:23, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Skin colour and others

oh really? to some, the 江南 region is also considered to be 南方, and the region, especially Shanghai, is known to produce fair-skinned people. and is Sichuan, which also has a great deal of pales, exactly northern (by most accounts), either? The climatic data, especially on humidity and total amount of sunshine, would also disagree with the article's assertions, too. --HXL's Roundtable, and Record 23:54, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

Stereotypes, which they are and are clearly marked as, are not necessarily accurate. Quigley (talk) 00:00, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

GuerillaRenMin's source is a British travel book, it is not a trustworthy source. It is a travel book for God's sake. Until you get a book about the geneaology of the Chinese peoples, and it's stereotypes in skin colour and other bodily forms then you cannot state anything solid. It's also true than Sichuan and Shanghai have light skin tones, but it is mostly Northerners who are genrally percieved to have whiter skin. Because Northerners are seen as paler, by many of the Chinese, it is a stereotype - which clearly does fit into that subsection. This section does not really need a citation or a source/reference. It is not a fact - the section clearly on requires stereotypes. GuerillaRenMin is trying to pull a farce and rewrite 5000 years of Chinese self-sterotyping with a Fodor's travel book's conjectures and assertions. What if it was a typo? Who knows. You need more sources to back it up. (Pugu (talk) 22:50, 30 June 2012 (UTC))

"By many of the Chinese"? That's not what I've heard, and in fact, I've heard the exact opposite. Until you can produce at least 5 studies (and yes I read Chinese), the bit about skin tone will stay out of the article. GotR ^Talk 23:28, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Globalizing South China  By Carolyn Cartier

http://books.google.com/books?id=TRuqcutRvUAC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://www.paragonbook.com/html/browsesubj/browse.cfm?regionid=5&subjectid=36&group=1&print=yes&RequestTimeOut=3600

http://www.cmecc.com/uploads/课本和论文/中国城市/[70][中国城市]Carolyn.Cartier(2002)Globalizing.South.China.pdf

Rajmaan (talk) 02:10, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Map Request

I have requested a map for this article. Although some maps are already included in the article, they all require careful readings of the text plus the map captions to discern how their content relates to the topic of the article. Granting that the dividing line is ambiguous, I would still expect that one of the following might obtain: (a) someone has done an academic study regarding perceptions of North/South by Chinese people and lines could be drawn on that basis, (b) some government agency has autocratically decided the division and lines could be drawn on that basis (as in Image:Us_south_census.png) (c) the Huai River–Qin Mountains line referred to later in the article could be drawn alone on a map, or, if no single map is sufficient, (d) multiple lines could be drawn that reflect multiple commonly used divisions (perhaps in a rotating image file). Elatb (talk) 00:09, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Capitalisation

I suggest "southern" in the title of the article be capitalised. - 00:25 CEST on the 29. of May 2013 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:C440:20:1116:94D7:798C:E97:13A3 (talk) 23:27, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Genetics

Southern Han largely share the same Y chromosomes with the same mutations as northern Han, while differing in mtdna and autosomal DNA.. Due to southern Han being descended from northern Han migrants who moved to southern China and married native women

http://books.google.com/books?id=I2OMVmp-7mwC&pg=PA43#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://udini.proquest.com/view/how-han-are-taiwanese-han-genetic-pqid:1668343911/

http://gradworks.umi.com/33/43/3343568.html

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15372031

http://159.226.149.45/compgenegroup/paper/wenbo%20Han%20culture%20paper%20(2004).pdf

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v431/n7006/full/nature02878.html

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v16/n6/abs/5201998a.html

Do not use the blog as a reference, but use it to find and cross reference other sources.

http://blog.renren.com/share/288113449/11798480444

Teochew, Fujianese, and Hakka Y chromosome compared in Singapore. The three groups largely share the same Y chromosome

http://scholarbank.nus.edu.sg/bitstream/handle/10635/27767/Summary.pdf?sequence=3

Differences between southern Han Chinese groups like Chaoshan, Hakka, and Cantonese is mainly in the mtdna lineage inherited from the mother, where some southern Han have heavy amounts of southern native mtdna.

http://en.cnki.com.cn/Article_en/CJFDTOTAL-XAYX201006005.htm

http://online4kim.net/xe/files/attach/images/7507/170/020/0b9b8d714566edea3954827c018a3c88.jpg

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7145/6590358575_7450cf0f53.jpg

http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/2131/yndahan.jpg

http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/5609/2008112521014723.jpg

http://www.ranhaer.com/attachments/forumid_48/1308171634806ad8e74f2ed197.jpeg

http://www.ranhaer.com/index.php

Taiwanese Plains Aborigines, Taiwanese people

有唐山公，無唐山媽

"Have mainland (Tangshan) grandfathers, don't have mainland (tangshan) grandmothers

http://books.google.com/books?id=I2OMVmp-7mwC&pg=PA19#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=I2OMVmp-7mwC&pg=PA21#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://udini.proquest.com/view/how-han-are-taiwanese-han-genetic-pqid:1668343911/

http://gradworks.umi.com/33/43/3343568.html

http://books.google.com/books?id=I2OMVmp-7mwC&pg=PA43#v=onepage&q&f=false

Autosomal DNA

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2008/12/genetic-map-of-east-asia/#.U1XEV_k71C8

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/eastasiasmall.jpg

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0003862

http://www.plosone.org/article/slideshow.action?uri=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0003862&imageURI=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0003862.t001#

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_ro2ijOk8JWc/STq-lWLjfwI/AAAAAAAAAb0/wSNXMS5rG4o/s1600-h/journal.pone.0003862.g001.jpg

http://pmsol3.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/journalpone0003862g0011.jpg

http://pmsol3.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/journalpone0003862g0021.jpg

http://pmsol3.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/journalpone0003862t001.jpg

Genetic tests on minority Zhuang Y Chromosomes show them to be of Baiyue descent, while they have some Northern Han y chromsomes due to migration of northern Han to southern China.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17185165

http://www.comonca.org.cn/LH/Doc/A30.PDF

A map of Baiyue ethnic groups in Southern China during the Zhou dynasty's rule over Northern China.

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w71/MGSG/fig1mt72e.gif

http://s173.photobucket.com/user/MGSG/media/fig1mt72e.gif.html

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Milktaco (talk • contribs) 20:49, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Historical Migration of Northern Han to Southern China

http://books.google.com/books?id=0DPEol7HO3gC&pg=PA213#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=0DPEol7HO3gC&pg=PA214#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=jqb7L-pKCV8C&pg=PA182&dq=Yellow+registers+white+chin&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LDgWU4PhEo3H0AHpnIHICQ&ved=0CFAQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=Yellow%20registers%20white%20chin&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=jqb7L-pKCV8C&pg=PA182#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=JTAcbF8cpQsC&pg=PA40&dq=Yellow+registers+white+chin&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LDgWU4PhEo3H0AHpnIHICQ&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=Yellow%20registers%20white%20chin&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=126EsR8rpC8C&pg=PA26#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=KS6sAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA181&dq=Yellow+registers+white+jin&hl=en&sa=X&ei=8jcWU-GlF8Wj0QG89oD4DA&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Yellow%20registers%20white%20jin&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=0wRikR7hhFQC&pg=PA67&dq=Yellow+registers+white+jin&hl=en&sa=X&ei=8jcWU-GlF8Wj0QG89oD4DA&ved=0CEgQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=Yellow%20registers%20white%20jin&f=false

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w71/MGSG/fig1mt72e.gif

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Milktaco (talk • contribs) 20:49, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

alternate names

Cantonese call themselves men of Tang, or Tang people, since they were descended from northern migrants from Central Plain (China) region who fled south during the Tang dynasty, and central plains people back then were called Tang people.

http://books.google.com/books?id=ERnrQq0bsPYC&pg=PA752#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=O72FhsxwzcAC&pg=PA37&dq=cantonese+middle+chinese+mandarin&hl=en&sa=X&ei=4aGAUqnLC8flsATRgIGQBA&ved=0CD4Q6wEwAQ#v=onepage&q=cantonese%20middle%20chinese%20mandarin&f=false

Cantonese dialect is close to Chinese language during the Tang dynasty

http://books.google.com/books?id=8OT_Sbk0yekC&pg=PA99&dq=cantonese+middle+chinese+mandarin&hl=en&sa=X&ei=4aGAUqnLC8flsATRgIGQBA&ved=0CFcQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=cantonese%20middle%20chinese%20mandarin&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=Fo087ZxohA4C&pg=PA5#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=_-dJxMfdhvEC&pg=PA6&dq=cantonese+middle+chinese+mandarin&hl=en&sa=X&ei=4aGAUqnLC8flsATRgIGQBA&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=cantonese%20middle%20chinese%20mandarin&f=false

Rajmaan (talk) 20:51, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

There is a similar article

Qinling Huaihe Line. --Komitsuki (talk) 03:00, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

Some of these articles should be merged into Geography of China. Vacosea (talk) 18:11, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 18 October 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. No consensus to move at this time (closed by non-admin page mover) Polyamorph (talk) 11:45, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

---

Northern and southern China → North–south divide in China – Amended from North–south divide (China) as per suggestion Or something like it, to make the focus of the article more clear, rather than just inviting copied fragments and statistics from other pages. Remsense聊 17:54, 18 October 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Lightoil (talk) 19:13, 25 October 2023 (UTC)— Relisting. Polyamorph (talk) 08:48, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

• Move to North–south divide in China per WP:NATURALDISAMBIGUATION. Rreagan007 (talk) 01:29, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

  Agree. amended suggestion as such Remsense聊 02:09, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

• Sorry, had to further change the amended nomination statement because RMCDbot was marking it as a malformed request. Hopefully, this causes the error to stop showing up? Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 03:33, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. Although the original entry name is confusing, the wording of "divide" is pretty awkward, to be honest. Probably a better name needed. Cfls (talk) 20:05, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
  • Cfls, do you have any suggestions? I'm genuinely racking my brain for an encyclopedic noun that means 'divide', but isn't, you know, divisive. — Remsense聊 10:41, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
  • I can't think of a better title than the one proposed. I don't personally find the proposed title awkward, but as you say the current title is confusing. Even assuming the proposed title is awkward, an awkward title is better than a confusing title. So the proposed title is an improvement. Therefore the article should be moved. And if someone comes up with a better title in the future, we can always move the article again. Rreagan007 (talk) 17:43, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
• Question: What is unclear or confusing about the current title? —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 13:27, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
  • Mx. Granger, I suppose simply stating the existence of two categories is less clear than specifically articulating that the subject of the article is the distinctions between them, if that makes sense? Remsense聊 19:58, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

I guess. When the categories are opposites or form a dichotomy, I think it's pretty clear. Compare Natural rights and legal rights, Old and New Lights, Northern, Central and Southern Vietnam, and especially Global North and Global South. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 02:46, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Well, the issue perhaps is a bit clearer when there are already distinct North China and South China articles, rather than the two concepts being more clearly joined at the hip, which is arguably the case with Global North and South. Remsense聊 03:09, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

• Premature: Many parts of the article are not cited or are referenced by sources focused on other topics. They should be addressed before we worry about the title. The same seems to be true for the North and South China articles. Vacosea (talk) 00:12, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
  • Vacosea, It's certainly more important, but I'm confused why you think one would be in any way getting in the way of the other. If anything, making the subject of the article marginally more clear would make me feel better about expanding it. Remsense聊 00:14, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

    It would help define the topic more concisely if we know what the sources are focused on and which parts are OR or passing mentions. Vacosea (talk) 00:22, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

    Agreed. I will put it on my list to source some proper references for this article. Remsense聊 00:23, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

    Within China the most pronounced variations are based on elevation and population density going from east to west. There is a gradual gradient of differences in the population and culture going from north to south but it is very mixed in terms of food, language, skin color, or height for example. Also, "northerner" and "southerner" sometimes exclude northeasterners and Mongolians as well as southerners in South China but include parts of Southwestern China and Northwest. It is a very vague and informal way of reference, without any universal consensus. The South and North China articles are not really about these northern-southern gradients. They are much closer to historical regions like the Midwest or South of the U.S. which do not necessarily match any actual variation or statistics. Vacosea (talk) 16:51, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

References

"A Contribution to the Ethnology of the Chinese" by Lamprey is from 1868 and contains some ideas that we now know to be untrue, such as the habit of closing one's eyes making them smaller and hereditary. Vacosea (talk) 02:09, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

References

Huai River basin

Administratively it's easier to see the Huai River as a line so it was used this way politically. Geographically however the two sides of the river are very similar. It's more accurate to say that the Huai River basin [1] is a transition zone between north and south. This also helps solve any problem that arises from the Huai River (line) having moved in the past [2], like the Yellow River. Vacosea (talk) 22:43, 2 September 2024 (UTC)