Talk:Tragic Kingdom

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Tragic Kingdom article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Tragic Kingdom is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
October 27, 2008	Good article nominee	Listed
November 11, 2008	Peer review	Reviewed
December 20, 2008	Featured article candidate	Not promoted
January 13, 2009	Featured article candidate	Not promoted
October 3, 2009	Featured article candidate	Promoted
October 19, 2009	Featured topic candidate	Promoted
Current status: Featured article

Albums

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Albums, an attempt at building a useful resource on recordings from a variety of genres. If you would like to participate, visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.AlbumsWikipedia:WikiProject AlbumsTemplate:WikiProject AlbumsAlbum articles

Alternative music High‑importance

	Rock music portal This article is part of WikiProject Alternative music, a group of Wikipedians interested in improving the encyclopedic coverage of articles relating to alternative rock. If you would like to help out, you are welcome to drop by the project page and/or leave a query at the project's talk page.Alternative musicWikipedia:WikiProject Alternative musicTemplate:WikiProject Alternative musicAlternative music articles
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

Reggae High‑importance

	This article is part of the Reggae WikiProject, a group of Wikipedians interested in improving the coverage of articles relating to ska and reggae. If you would like to help out, you are welcome to drop by the project page and/or leave a query at the project's talk page.ReggaeWikipedia:WikiProject ReggaeTemplate:WikiProject ReggaeReggae articles
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

Gwen Stefani High‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Gwen Stefani, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Gwen Stefani on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Gwen StefaniWikipedia:WikiProject Gwen StefaniTemplate:WikiProject Gwen StefaniGwen Stefani articles
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

Women in Music

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Women in Music, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Women in music on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Women in MusicWikipedia:WikiProject Women in MusicTemplate:WikiProject Women in MusicWomen in music articles
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

This article was a past Alternative Music Collaboration of the Week! You can view other past collaborations in the archive.

The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future:

https://www.worldradiohistory.com/Archive-All-Music/Billboard/Billboard-Rock-Airplay/1996/Airplay-Monitor-Rock-1996-09-13.pdf
Ross, Sean, ed. (24 January 1997). "Modern" (PDF). Rock Airplay Monitor. 4 (4).

Keyboards

Didn't Eric Stefani do most of the keyboards on this album?

POV

The information after the track listing is all POV and should be rewitten or removed. 67.187.189.139 07:19, 20 June 2006

Cover art and name

While Disney now uses Magic Kingdom primarily to brand the Orlando park, it was originally used for Disneyland in Anaheim. There's nothing obvious about the cover being an alcoholic beverage label, and there is plenty to indicate that it's a fruit crate label -- particularly the fruit, and the "Sunpist" (ref Sunkist) reference. Patrickbowman (talk) 20:47, 16 February 2008 (UTC) (UTC)[reply]

Genre

I listed the genre as "Ska-punk, punk rock, alternative rock." I don't think any of the songs are really "post-grunge." "Don't Speak" and "The Climb" are alternative rock, "Excuse Me Mr." is punk rock, "Sixteen" is the perfect example of ska-punk. I placed the hidden comment for a reason. Is there anyone else with an opinion? Tezkag72 (talk) 18:09, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What's there is fine enough with me. Before making the change, I wanted to see what people thought about changing "American rock band" to "American third wave ska band" in the lead. All of No Doubt's albums have had ska in them, but the term also includes the band's pop and rock styles. More importantly, it makes the connection between Tragic Kingdom and the 1990s ska revival more apparent. PiracyFundsTerrorism (talk) 05:32, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I'd buy that. Let's go. Tezkag72 (talk) 12:27, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Will do

This article is next on my to-do list. Give me a week to finish my current project and I'll start building this up. -- _{Escape Artist Swyer} ^{Talk to me} _{The mess I've made} 15:09, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I've started my major revamp. Massive coincidence it being "collaboration of the week". Help is appreciated, although I'm taking my format from No Doubt (No Doubt album) and The Beacon Street Collection and will get grumpy otherwise. -- _{Escape Artist Swyer} ^Talk _{Contributions} 15:25, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Some links that people working on the article may find helpful: [1][2][3][4][5] PiracyFundsTerrorism (talk) 23:31, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Don't Speak

This was released as an air-play only single in the US but was still a single. In Europe, Australia and Japan it was released as a CD in 1997. We even have a copy of its CD cover in the article. Its precise place in the album's single chronology is unsure, but it was definitely a single. I'm putting it in as the third single. -- _{Escape Artist Swyer} ^Talk _{Contributions} 20:12, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Standard

With a bit more work (such as rewriting the lead, which I'm about to do) I think this could make featured article status. There's so much information out there, it seems a shame to leave it at a GA nom. Tezkag72 and PiracyFundsTerrorism, how about we hammer this into shape and make a join-nom at FAN when it's up to scratch? -- _{Escape Artist Swyer} ^Talk _{Contributions} 19:10, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm listing this at WP:GAN as I think it is GA standard. More than likely it'll take at least two weeks for someone to have a look so, if either of you want/need to make any changes, there is time. -- _{Escape Artist Swyer} ^Talk _{Contributions} 19:55, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's ready also. PiracyFundsTerrorism, are you up for it? WesleyDodds I think only worked on this because it was the collaboration of the week. But I am willing to put it at the top of my list until it's an FA, or at least a GA. Tezkag72 (talk) 21:19, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yay! Well, I'm just going to sit on it until its GA review rolls round and edit elsewhere. Then we'll see what needs a polish. -- _{Escape Artist Swyer} ^Talk _{Contributions} 21:39, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Tragic Kingdom/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

1. Well written
- The infobox serves to summarize parts of the article; therefore, I'd recommend moving the names of the studios – if you think they're important enough to mention – to the article body and just writing something like "Recorded: March 1993 – ______ at various studios in the Greater Los Angeles Area". DoneTezkag72 (talk) 01:04, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Why is Atlantic included in the infobox but not in the article? Not mentioned in the release history, either. DoneTezkag72 (talk) 01:04, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The release history section doesn't add much and Wikipedia is not a directory. If you think the various formats deserve mention, include the info in the prose of the "Release and impact" section. DoneTezkag72 (talk) 21:26, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - Actually, I meant that the formats were the most relevant part of that section, and should be included in the prose if you think they're worthy of mention (personally, I don't). Nobody cares about labels and catalog numbers, and that's why the entire section should be cut. —Zeagler (talk) 21:30, 17 October 2008 (UTC) Done I removed the section altogether. Tezkag72 (talk) 21:37, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    - The relevant Wikiproject disagrees. PiracyFundsTerrorism (talk) 05:43, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The long quote from Tom Dumont would have more impact if it were cut down a bit. DoneTezkag72 (talk) 21:26, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
2. Factually accurate and verifiable
- "The band started to work on its second album in 1993 but Interscope, having lost faith in the band" – citation for loss of faith? Done-- _{Escape Artist Swyer} ^Talk _{Contributions} 22:09, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - I couldn't find it on that page... —Zeagler (talk) 22:36, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    - Changed ref. -- _{Escape Artist Swyer} ^Talk _{Contributions} 16:22, 19 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      - I'm still not seeing it...?

(outdent)Well we have: '"When we got back, though, the problems started." Stefani has resumed the story. "We were writing and writing, but Interscope was being really wishy-washy about letting us go in the studio. Things just kept getting dragged out... ."

"Months and months and months," emphasizes Young, shaking his head. "We were going insane."' from the source. I'll track down something else if that isn't obvious enough. -- _{Escape Artist Swyer} ^Talk _{Contributions} 18:36, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We also have a new source: 'Things weren't always so rosy for No Doubt. Three difficult years have passed since the release of the group's self-titled debut on Interscope. Shortly after the album's delivery, the record label mysteriously pulled its support for the project, leaving the band to finance a tour on its own. Undaunted, the group spent the first part of '93 working on new music, turning out roughly 50 fresh songs. They found a producer to work with, approached the record company with all their ideas and were indefinitely put on hold.' -- _{Escape Artist Swyer} ^Talk _{Contributions} 18:40, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- That's all solid info (and it should be incorporated into the article at some point), but calling it a loss of faith is still a leap. Probably best to remove that clause and not attribute a motive until a reference is found that backs it up unequivocally. —Zeagler (talk) 18:49, 21 October 2008 (UTC) Fixed[reply]

- "No Doubt performed on the Warped Tour...and at several skateboarding festivals." – wouldn't hurt to add a couple citations to show the band performed at other skateboarding festivals. Done by Escape Artist Swyer. Tezkag72 (talk) 12:59, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - Well, I wasn't too worried about the Warped Tour, but "several skateboarding festivals" is sufficiently vague that it deserves some citations. —Zeagler (talk) 13:08, 18 October 2008 (UTC) DoneTezkag72 (talk) 18:28, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Is the stage design info included in reference [51]?
  - I don't know what to do about that. I can't exactly just go and buy the thing. Web citations are better because anyone can check them. But I don't think the info should be removed, at least not yet, because whoever put that must have used that as a reference. Tezkag72 (talk) 21:41, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    - Believe it or not, my university's library has the issue in question. I'll check it when I get a chance. —Zeagler (talk) 21:54, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      - Yes, that reference includes all that information. PiracyFundsTerrorism (talk) 05:43, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        So I guess it's Done now. Tezkag72 (talk) 18:21, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I notice inconsistencies in the way references are cited. Would be a good idea to convert all to the {{cite web}}, etc., templates.
  - This is the only remaining issue. I can take care of this myself, but it will probably take a few days. Feel free to help out... —Zeagler (talk) 19:34, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    - I wouldn't know a cite web template if it hit me in the face, but I'll brush up on it and lend a hand. Hopefully this can all be finished within the week limit (ends 23rd). -- _{Escape Artist Swyer} ^Talk _{Contributions} 15:12, 22 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
3. Broad in its coverage
- I think the mention of the band's releasing two singles from The Beacon Street Collection independently goes beyond the scope of the article, especially since the "independent" point is made in the surrounding sentences.
  - Hmmm... I'd prefer to keep the mention as an important part of ND's background: hey, they released singles! If it's vital they go, then sure, but it's just a brief mention of what happened with Beacon Street and its success.-- _{Escape Artist Swyer} ^Talk _{Contributions} 22:02, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Including in the prose all the chart placements of the singles makes for a difficult read. Maybe it can be summarized a bit. —Zeagler (talk) 02:59, 19 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without bias
- Lots of POV phrases with regard to sales numbers and chart positions – just stick to the numbers DoneTezkag72 (talk) 21:34, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - "performed moderately well", "commercially successful", "crossover success", "greatest hit", "commercial failure", "modest success", etc. DoneTezkag72 (talk) 21:34, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - others remain —Zeagler (talk) 18:38, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    - Tell me where, so I can go there and try to fix 'em. Tezkag72 (talk) 01:49, 19 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      - Search the page for "commercial failure", "moderately well", "commercially successful", "crossover success", "greatest hit", "modest success", "success", "poorly", and "commercial success".
        Done, although I'd like to keep a single mention of "commercial success" in the release and impact section. If an album that goes diamond in the US and Canada, platinum in the UK and 3 x platinum is Australia isn't a commercial success, I don't know what is. -- _{Escape Artist Swyer} ^Talk _{Contributions} 16:47, 19 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        All right, fix the two "commercial failure" instances and we'll call it good. Either replace with sales numbers or reword (and cite) to make it clear that Interscope considered it a failure.
5. Stable
- OK
6. Illustrated, if possible, by images
- A picture of the stage set-up from the tour would be helpful – have you searched Flickr?

The most I can find is a ticket stub here. -- _{Escape Artist Swyer} ^Talk _{Contributions} 17:07, 19 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Let me know when you've addressed these issues or if you'd like to discuss further. Nice job so far. —Zeagler (talk) 23:08, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So...are we ready to go? Tezkag72 (talk) 18:29, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Image copyright problem with Image:Spiderwebs.ogg

The image Image:Spiderwebs.ogg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
That this article is linked to from the image description page.

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --06:25, 31 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is done now. ^Tezkag₇₂ 01:19, 13 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Review

This is from 34th Street Magazine : link

Clearly, as the writer admits to only being 8 when the album was released, it is a recent review (rather than being written in 1995 and only having being posted on the site recently). I say we include it as a more recent review. If we get a couple of recent reviews, we could hammer out a third paragraph in the "critical reception" section. Tezkag72, input? -- EA Swyer ^Talk _{Contributions} 17:02, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Very true. Helps show the album's significance. Tezkag72 (talk) 15:41, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm looking for more "recent" reviews. Currently failing. Will keep working at the article though. Good call on the "maintained" banner. -- EA Swyer ^Talk _{Contributions} 18:07, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - Another thing, what were the sources you were going to use to expand the currently one-sentence paragraph in Music? Tezkag72 (talk) 18:47, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    - I planned to use a lot of quotations from interviews listed on No Doubt's website, such as the one about Gwen writing Just a Girl after her father got annoyed at her driving to Tony Kanal's house late at night. However, all the links at No Doubt's website are broken. I may just use lyrics and hope it isn't labelled original synthesis. -- EA Swyer ^Talk _{Contributions} 19:47, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    - Too late. I don't know what to do, exactly. -- EA Swyer ^Talk _{Contributions} 19:48, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've decided to layout the "music" section as per Love. Angel. Music. Baby.#Music. "Musical style" we can take from reviews. I know there will be an issue with dead citations linking to interviews hosted at No Doubt's website but maybe we can find cached versions or the citations will be back up by the time this hits FAC. Lyrical content - comment on how Gwen rather than Eric is writing most songs and the themes (from reviews and interviews). Singles - this section is fine.
EA Swyer ^Talk _{Contributions} 18:08, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The ref used in the "lyrics" section is a dead link. However, I've found the transcipt of the interview elsewhere, on a fan site here. As I have little choice in the matter, I'm redirecting the ref there. :) -- EA Swyer ^Talk _{Contributions} 19:28, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - I'm not sure that would count. Wikipedia has a big issue with "reliable" sources, as I learned from a failed FAC in April. Tezkag72 (talk) 20:00, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    - I'm going out on a limb and trying to contact the interviewer to see if a hardcopy of the interview was ever published. In the meantime, I shall continue to polish the "music" section, then expand the lead. If there is any reply, I should have had it by then. I'll look for other comments on the themes online too. -- EA Swyer ^Talk _{Contributions} 22:48, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

He got back to me! Evan Zelig emailed me back! I obviously cannot post the content of the email here, but the basic gist was that:

The interview was never printed in hard copy.
It was published on Zelig's site, Concert Online, which is no longer active.
Mirrors exist, but the one that used to be at No Doubt's official site is the only official one.

-- EA Swyer ^Talk _{Contributions} 21:58, 2 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That is unfortunate. What can we do about it now? Tezkag72 (talk) 15:59, 3 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I want to keep it in. After all, the interviewer himself admitted its a mirror rather than a load of made-up BS. Could you find another quotation that summarises the lyrical writing? We'll keep it in until we're told to take it out. In the meantime, the broken references we have are numbers: ~~5, 6,~~ 21, 24, 27, 28, 42. The Billboard ones (all but 5 and 6) simply need redirecting. -- EA Swyer ^Talk _{Contributions} 17:44, 3 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Another thing, we need to convert all the references that are just a link with a title to the "cite web" template. I'll try to get them done when I have more time, but if we're just going to remove them anyway... Tezkag72 (talk) 21:04, 3 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Tell you what, you convert all the refs I haven't listed. I'll fix the ones that I did list. -- EA Swyer ^Talk _{Contributions} 19:04, 5 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I tried to format a few of the Billboard refs in Singles, but they are now dead links. I don't really know what page it was before, but would I be able to use this?

Way-hay! I've fixed all the dead refs. Could you format all the refs while I'm away (holiday in Edinburgh, Scotland with little internet access) and we'll nominate it in 3 weeks' time? -- EA Swyer ^Talk _{Contributions} 01:15, 7 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Done. But there were two links that were dead (thanks, Billboard Top 40 Mainstream) so instead of formatting references that didn't exist, I marked them as dead links. Not much is covered by them, so should I just remove them and the stuff that is? Tezkag72 (talk) 16:00, 7 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, remove the info. I really hate Billboard's new layout: it's impossible to find anything! After that, I'm happy to nominate. When did you want to do so? -- EA Swyer ^Talk _{Contributions} 21:36, 7 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Final brush up

Hello from Edinburgh. I've just realised something we're missing from the article. At the bottom we have a "preceded by-succeeded by" box for Billboard number 1. We're going to need boxes like this for every major chart it went to number one at. I'm back in London Friday where I'll have proper internet. -- EA Swyer ^Talk _{Contributions} 12:47, 23 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Don't have much time now, but I'll try to get around to it later. Sorry I haven't been on in the past week; some squirrels chewed through a wire through which I get telephone and internet, and it took a few days to get someone to repair it. Tezkag72 (talk) 18:34, 24 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've fixed those deadlinks. I don't think we need those boxes, although if you could do them, that would be great. I want to nominate it. Will drop you a line at your talk page. -- EA Swyer ^Talk _{Contributions} 00:06, 3 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Tragic Kingdom. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090223124634/http://www.nodoubt.com/band/ to http://www.nodoubt.com/band/

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 20:33, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]