Talk:Moors

Moor from Mauri

I frankly don't understand why this article is separated from the one for Mauri, since the word Moor is originally from Mauri, which was used by Romans, and by the native Mauri (inhabitants of the Kingdom of Mauretania and the Roman provinces that ensued from them) to designate themselves, indicating as Gabriel Camps suggests that it may be originally a Berber word that went into Greek then Latin. The claim of the first paragraph of the article that it was an "exonym" in that sense, is not accurate, and much less is the claim that it was an equivalent of Muslim. The term was and remained much more strongly associated with Northwest Africa and its proxy regions (e.g. Andalusia) than any other place, and a cursory search in the literature is sufficient indication, that it was mainly a geographical term that was sometimes abused and generalized, but most often retained its original significance (check the number of hits for "Moorish Morocco" vs "Moorish Egypt" or any other region, on Google Books or Google Scholar for instance). --Ideophagous (talk) 10:23, 03 April 2021 (UTC+2)

Moor Means Black

Samuel Johnson's A Dictionary Of The English Language (1755, online version) definition of Moor:

MOOR. n.s. [moer, Dutch; modder, Teutonick, clay.]

1. A marsh; a fen; a bog; a tract of low and watry grounds.

2. [Maurus, Latin.] A negro; a black-a-moor.

"I shall answer that better than you can the getting up of the negro’s belly; the moor is with child by you. Shakesp." 2001:1C00:1E20:D900:85E2:BDCB:637:D9D5 (talk) 10:24, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

What change to the article do you have in mind?

Please note that "moor" is a word of uncertain etymology and with varying denotations and connotations in different contexts, which is (or should be) the subject of this article.Nø (talk) 12:50, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

The problem is, there is one connotation that is glaringly missing from the article page. There are many moorish cultural traditions in Europe, from morris dancing to zwarte piet in Holland.

The article could include Saint Maurice. (Atlanta Black Star) Moors, Saints, Knights and Kings: The African Presence in Medieval and Renaissance Europe. Also here: (SMITHSONIAN MAG) Not All the Knights of the Round Table Were White.

On Sir Morien: “He was all black, even as I tell ye: his head, his body, and his hands were all black, saving only his teeth. His shield and his armour were even those of a Moor, and black as a raven.”. 2001:1C00:1E20:D900:B5AA:96B:F68F:4FF5 (talk) 19:00, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Moor doesn't mean black. There are historical references to white Moors and black Moors. These terms are still used in Mauritania today, where the 'white Moors' are Berbers/Arabs who rule the country and 'black Moors' are descendants of black slaves. Ario1234 (talk) 01:26, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Saint Maurice was an Egyptian. He's depicted as white and black in historical artworks. In Egypt the Copts depict him as white. Ario1234 (talk) 01:29, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Even if that were the case, why are there no depictions of Black Moors on the page, at all? 2001:1C00:1E20:D900:D108:E292:4ECE:682B (talk) 01:32, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

There's a couple of depictions of black Moors. But it's true the existence of black Moors isn't properly addressed or explained. Ario1234 (talk) 01:45, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

It looks like previous editors of the page wanted to push back against the conspiracy theory that the Moors were black and that modern North Africans are just recent invaders. Ario1234 (talk) 02:03, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Now you're implying that Samuel Johnson is an 'Afrocentrist' conspiracy theorist. 2001:1C00:1E20:D900:D108:E292:4ECE:682B (talk) 02:12, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

No, but selectively citing a source like Samuel Johnson and ignoring other evidence is the sort of thing that conspiracy theorists do. Ario1234 (talk) 02:30, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Actually you're projecting your own agenda onto others. You are very selectively ignoring the massive depiction of Moors as Black. And how is citing Samuel Johnson's dictionary definitions of Moor 'selectively citing a source'? Is there evidence that Samuel Johnson elsewhere said the moors were White that I'm ignoring? 2001:1C00:1E20:D900:D108:E292:4ECE:682B (talk) 02:35, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

No I'm not ignoring anything. I already said there are historical references to both white Moors and black Moors, as well as artistic depictions of white Moors and black Moors, and I told you that the terms 'White Moor' and 'Black Moor' are still used in Mauritania today Ario1234 (talk) 02:47, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

A Problematic Start To The Article

"The term Moor is an exonym first used by Christian Europeans to designate the Muslim populations of the Maghreb, al-Andalus (Iberian Peninsula), Sicily and Malta during the Middle Ages.[1]"

This is demonstrably untrue. The Moors were often depicted as Christians, especialy Saint Maurice.

What is going on here is 1) the obfuscation of the presence of Black Africans in Europe and 2) the conflation of the terms Moor, Berber and Muslim. This is Christian Europeans depicting Saint Maurice, as a Moor, not long after Moorish rule ended in Spain, in 1491 with the Treaty of Grenada:

Matthias Grünewald, Saints Erasmus and Mauritius, 1520-1524

Saint Maurice, 1525

"Originally the wing of an altarpiece, this panel represents Maurice, the Roman legion commander martyred for refusing to slaughter Christians. It was likely commissioned by Cardinal Albrecht of Brandenburg (1490–1545), the most powerful prelate in the Holy Roman Empire...". Notice that the lifelike depiction in these and many other paintings proves the presence of African people in Europe in the early 1500s.

Why is this image from the 'Arab Agricultural Revolution' page not included? 2001:1C00:1E20:D900:D108:E292:4ECE:682B (talk) 02:35, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Unsourced Claim

"Castillian ambassadors attempting to convince Moorish Almohad king Abu Hafs Umar al-Murtada to join their alliance (contemporary depiction from the Cantigas de Santa María)"

What is the source for this statement? What is the evidence that this individual is Moorish Almohad king Abu Hafs al-Murtada? Or is Moorish? Or even a Muslim? 2001:1C00:1E20:D900:D108:E292:4ECE:682B (talk) 11:58, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Those labels and others are probably based on this book Alfonso X and The Cantigas de Santa Maria: A Poetic Biography (1998): https://archive.org/details/alf_20231212/page/n27/mode/2up 41.222.179.226 (talk) 12:37, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

"probably"? What standard of referencing is that?

The page's actual and only caption reads:

"9. Abu Yusuf, the emir of Benimerines, is defeated in Morocco by Christian knights bearing the banner of Holy Mary. Cantigas de Santa Maria, 181. Escorial MS T.I.l."

So, not the Moorish Almohad King Abu Hafs al-Murtada?

In fact, the Benimerimes had overthrown the Almohads.

Wikipedia: "They emerged after the fall of the Almohad Empire" 2001:1C00:1E20:D900:D108:E292:4ECE:682B (talk) 13:57, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Evidently, I never went through the whole book, but skimmed through and saw that some illustrations do name certain figures/events and have a history behind them, that was my false assumption for others.

Here's an obscure website I managed to find, but it is polemic against "Afrocentrism" and not credible, it labels the image in question as 'King Umar al-Murtada, the Almohad ruler of Morocco, is persuaded to ally with Christians.' https://www.angelfire.com/md/8/moors.html However this link is completely unreliable in this case for obvious reasons.

Something to note is here on the The Oxford Cantigas de Santa Maria database search, 'Umar al-Murtada' is on the named persons, but it does not show in which codex rendition or poem the reference has him listed on. https://csm.mml.ox.ac.uk/index.php?p=poem_search

I came across this on Alamy as well, which has a label for that image, but this is a stock website.

https://www.alamy.com/a-portrait-of-moorish-almohad-king-abu-hafs-umar-al-murtada-from-the-cantigas-de-santa-mara-north-africa-and-southern-spain-were-united-politically-during-the-11th-13th-centuries-under-a-dynasty-of-berber-origins-the-almohad-empire-extending-from-the-atlantic-to-tripoli-in-present-day-libya-and-from-current-mauritania-in-the-south-to-the-walls-of-toledo-in-the-iberian-peninsula-to-the-north-the-largest-ever-european-african-empire-image417856384.html

Anyway, regardless, I noticed the picture has now been removed as contested for the time being. Maybe someone else can find a direct and clear academic source as we see for Abu Yusuf, the Emir of Benimerines. 41.222.177.181 (talk) 15:14, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 November 2024

Please bring back the image that was removed here https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Moors&oldid=1254751943

This image was removed after an Afrocentrist YouTube channel spread the baseless claim that this photo doesn't depict Almohad Sultan but rather Visigothic or Levantine scholars in Spain. Their only argument was the fact that the poems don't mention him by name.

I will provide the historical context and evidence to prove that this is false and the person depicted is indeed Almohad sultan Al-Murtada.

Cantiga 181 of the Cantigas de Santa Maria of Alfonso X is titled "The Banner of the Virgin Defeats the Moors at Marrakesh".

source:

The text goes as follows:

The King of Marrakech was at war with another king.

The other king had crossed the Morabe River with a huge army and had laid siege to the city.

The king of Marrakech was advised to go out from the city with his best warriors to do battle. He was to take the banner of Holy Mary and to be accompanied by Christians carrying crosses.

The King followed this advice, and when the banner of Holy Mary was unfurled, the army of the other king was defeated. Many of his men were killed and they lost their tents and possessions.

others, seeing the banner and crosses, fled in great haste.

In this way, the Virgin helped her friends, even though they were of another faith.

The poem talks about the battle between the Almohads and Marinids that took place near Marrakesh in the year 1262. When the Marinid sultan Abu Yusuf attempted to invade Marrakesh which was still held by the last Almohad sultan Abu Hafs Umar al-Murtada.

source: [1]

The historian Joseph F O'Callaghan talks about this event in his book. "Alfonso X and the Cantigas de Santa Maria: A Poetic Biography". In Chapter 7 "The Rise of the Benimerines" page 135 he says:

The invasion of the peninsula in mid-May 1275 by the Benimerines, a new Muslim dynasty from Morocco, dictated the urgency of the king’s movements. The Bani Marin or Marinids, whom the Castilians knew as the Benimerines, rose to power in Morocco on the ashes of the disintegrating Almohad empire. When Alfonso X sent his expedition to Salé in 1260, Abu Yusuf Ya‘qub b. ‘Abd al-Haqq (1258-1286), the emir of the Benimerines, was establishing his rule in that region and occupied Salé after the Castilians abandoned it.

CSM 169.53 described Abu Yusuf as lord of Salé—“o sennor de Cale.” His struggle to overthrow the Almohads extended over a period of years and was not completed until 1269.”

With some satisfaction CSM 181, without mentioning his name, relates the story of a major defeat that Abu Yusuf suffered when he besieged Marrakech—“na cidade de Marrocos que e mui grand’ e fremosa” (6)—at an unknown date, perhaps in 1262 or 1264.?” This richly

illuminated cantiga shows the encampment of the turbanned and bearded Benimerines, armed with shields, lances, and pennants (panel 1). Abu Yusuf’s opponent, presumably al-Murtada, the last of the Almohad caliphs (d. 1268), is depicted with turban and beard and sitting crosslegged as his counselors urge him to give battle, but first to order the Christians of the city to bring out the banner of the Virgin Mary and the crosses from the church:

E porend’ os de Marrocos al Rei tal conssello davan que saisse da cidade con béa gent’ esleuda

D’armas e que mantenente cono outro rei lidasse

e logo fora da vila a sina sacar mandasse

da Virgen Santa Mana, e que per ren non dultasse que os logo non vencesse, pois la ouvesse tenduda;

Demais, que sair fezesse dos crischdos o concello conas cruzes da eigreja (17-26).

In the panels (3-6) portraying the confrontation of the two armies, a body of mounted warriors dressed in mail and bowled helmets carries two crosses and a red banner showing the Virgin Mary seated on a gold throne with her Child in her lap.*® Clearly these are Christian soldiers in the service of the Almohad caliph. Filled with great fear when they saw the Christian symbols, the enemy fled in disorder, leaving their tents behind. “Many of that ugly and bearded people died there”—“‘e morreu _y muita gente dessa fea e barvuda’” (33). The poet concluded triumphantly that Mary helps her friends, even those of another faith, who appealed to her:

E assi Santa Maria ajudou a seus amigos,

pero que d’ outra lei eran, a britar seus éemigos

que, macar que eran muitos, nonos pregaron dous figos, e asst for ssa mercee de todos mui connoguda (40-43).

(text might have errors because it was copied from a pdf)

source:

As you can see. the panel does indeed depict Almohad sultan al-Murtada consulting his counselors including christian ones from Castille as the Merinids were shared enemies for both Almohads and Castille. Castille was allied with the Almohad sultan Al-Murtada. And this poem talks about how the christians convinced him to let the christian soldiers carry the banner of Holy Virgin Mary. Which according to Castillian was the reason the Almohad army defeated the Marinid army.

I hope the image is brought back as I have provided extensive evidence. And please be careful with Afrocentric vandalization of such articles. AdamElMerini (talk) 03:28, 14 November 2024 (UTC)