Talk:Baltimore/Archive 1

Archive 1

Sign and date your posts!

People, people! Please sign and date your posts using four tildes(Davidbober 23:38, 26 August 2006 (UTC)).

Area Misrepresentative Edit

Who changed the figures from representing the Baltimore metropolitan area to the Baltimore-Washington consolidated metropolitan areas? This is an article about Baltimore; not about the Baltimore-Washington consolidated metropolitan area. The figures showing the Baltimore-Washington metropolitan area having a population of 7.6 million belong in the article about the “Baltimore-Washington Metropolitan Area,” not in an article about Baltimore. Someone please correct this data to show the Baltimore metropolitan area to have a population of approx. 2.5 million. Fairfax County and its population has absolutely no relevance in an article about Baltimore.

Population up since 2004?

As of 2005, the population was 641,943, up from 636,251 in 2004.

What is the source of this claim? I can't find it anywhere.

Here is a source.

That article doesn't say that the population increased to 641,943 in 2005. It says that a revised USCB estimate as of July 1, 2004 was 641,943, which is an increase over the original estimate of 636,251, which was disputed by the city. I don't think the USCB has released any 2005 estimates, yet. --Browncat 06:37, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Baltimore isn't even in the top 25 anymore - someone should edit the 200(7) date... being ranked 12th is a 2006 stat

As of 2005, Baltimore is #18 (see List of United States cities by population). I doubt it's dropped out of the top 25 so quickly (in 2005 #25 had 75,000 fewer people). --Jfruh (talk) 03:40, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Government and Crime

The latest (13th Edition) of the Crime City Rankings came out, and Baltimore is now 12th. Since this article mentions Baltimore being 2nd (in the 12th Edition) it should be updated. City Rankings - 13th Edition Andywebs 21:14, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

In the discussion on crime, the body is very political and talks in a very negative tone about the current mayor, who is running for governor. It is unnessisary.

Keep Rewrite to Neutral point of view instead. Davidbober 23:37, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Negative tone may be a difficulty for a political candidate, but it does not violate NPV provided it is reasonably documented. The question to address is "Is the information fairly factual and informative, or is it mere opinion ?" The hardest facts on this subject will be the ones released by the Mayor's office, which is hardly neutral.

Regarding the assertion that "Though the crime situation in Baltimore is considered one of the worst in the nation, city officials have pointed out that most violent crimes, particularly murders, are committed by people who know their victims and who are often associated with the illegal drug trade. [7]"

           how could this be so?  The City of Baltimore has a murder clearance rate of only about 33% as of the citation date.  It has no idea who committed the majority of murders.  This red-herring ought to be removed until the factual basis can be established.

Geography

This is somewhat trivial, but could someone please add something in the geography section about the shape of the city? How did it come to be a half-square? Is there a story similar to that of the formation of Washington, DC that might be interesting to note? -Laikalynx 16:40, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Missing colleges/universities

Why does your profile of Baltimore, MD not show the following Colleges and Universities located in Baltimore?

Loyola College, Coppin State College, The University of Baltimore, Baltimore City Community College, Towson University (nearby), University of Maryland Baltimore County, The University of Maryland Professional Schools of

 Social Work, Law, Dentistry, Medicine

The omission is clearly an oversight and does the city an injustice!

Jerry A. Stanley, MBA, CPA, MSF

Be bold & improve this article. --Menchi 06:38 14 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Towson University should be in the separate articles of Baltimore County, Maryland and Towson, Maryland, not in the article on the city. Similarly for UMBC. BRG

The Baltimore Blast are not defunct, as of January 2004. Also, the Baltimore Thunder (indoor lacrosse) are an active professional athletic team.

Sean Gallagher

Need a red dot map the city. Done

The Thunder have been defunct for years now actually.

Concentration of crime

"The worst area in terms of crime is the near west side." I'm not familiar with Baltimore but I am aware of that the East side is considered blighted. Can someone who knows the area improve the precision or accuracy of that line? lots of issues | leave me a message 06:56, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

West side is definitly the worst side. But until someone finds some crime data on the city and it's various areas, I think this should be left out of the article because it reeks of bias Dominic 17:38, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Both East and West Baltimore have blighted areas with extremely high incidences of criminal activities. However, generally, the west side is purported to have more of these areas. However, this doesn't seem particularly pertinent and evidence is sometimes largely anecdotal. Crime reports available at http://www.bosconet.org/pjohnson/blog/index.php/2006/07/12/visualizing-murder-ink/ list murders in a map form. There is a higher prevalence of murders occurring in the Western half. Particularly murder laden is the area from the North Avenue/ Coppin Heights neighborhoods to Pratt St and Wilkens Blvd, considered southwestern and verging on southern Baltimore. If someone determines this as being relevant to the article feel free to edit accordingly. However, as mentioned above, this does seem to evince a bias.

Secondly, the description of the DVD "Stop Snitchin" as to promote violence against any citizen of Baltimore is highly inaccurate. If one actually watches the DVD in its entirety (a dull and arduous task), there are no general threats to the citizenry of Baltimore, rather a call to fellow dealers to adhere to a street based code of ethics which honors not becoming an informant against those like yourself.

158.103.0.1 20:49, 21 August 2006 (UTC)Dee

City infobox format

I would like some input on the format of the city infobox. Many city pages are using a slightly new format of the infobox, one that includes the city skyline image inside of the infobox. The reasons for this are that mainly, it makes the infobox (and the page) look better, and more professional. The previous infobox format does not have city skyline included within the box itself, yet it is becoming very popular on city pages for a skyline image to appear at the top of the page. This causes the skyline image to be at the top right, with the infobox below it, in may cases with a different width for both the image as well as the infobox. I also think it looks a bit awkward to have the heading, Baltimore, Maryland appear at the top of the infobox, but not at the top of the page. Additionally, some pages that have more text in the opening paragraph statement, include text overflowing between the skyline image and the infobox, which I think looks poor (see Orlando, Florida for an example of this - though this also depends on the width of the monitor, which may be variable among users - still, it's bad form).

I propose the infobox pictured at the right, which includes the skyline at the top of the box, inside. This is currently being used on many pages, including Washington, D.C., Chicago, Illinois, Los Angeles, California, among others). In fact, the LA page had a discussion on their talk page that favored this infobox 3:1 over the old format.

I would like some more input on this format. I attempted to change it previously, yet Boothy443 seems to be engaging in an edit war over this with little opinion, other than that it looks ugly. Dr. Cash 03:31, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

I have no opinion about the format, but the data should be corrected to show the population of the Baltimore metropolitan area instead of the consolidated Baltimore-Washington metropolitan areas. Previously, this data was correct.

Climate - Dispute

OK, enough. I'm a mediator. This is the stupidest edit war I have seen in my entire time on Wikipedia. This is climate, it shouldn't be something that is arbitrary, but it's turning out to be. Both of you have decided you want to keep changing the averages based on your own information, and you've both brought up all these websites to prove your points. I think all three of us agree about having specific averages, and the addition of a chart was a good idea.

So, as an outsider, I have to say that after reading this article, let's consider the purpose. This article is likely going to be read by someone who is interested in Baltimore. Maybe they are going there for a convention or something, maybe they're going to school there, and maybe they are going to travel there for whatever reason. They are probably not going to spend all their time at the airport, they'll probably stay in the city at a hotel and eat, sleep, club, whatever in the city.

OK, so I understand the NWS might not keep track of humidity, precip, blah blah blah at the inner harbor station. Then we can put the precip, humidity and whatever into the article using the BWI info. Science tells us the simplest answer is often the right answer, and it seems to me that the simplest answer here is that the temperatures taken at the inner harbor more closely reflect the part of Baltimore that people are interested in seeing when they visit. You know, the city part. Not the airport part.

If the temperature in the city of Baltimore wasn't important to the NWS, then they wouldn't have a weather monitoring station there at all. However, I understand that not all of the climate data kept at the airport is kept at the Inner Harbor station, but some is, and it is more appropriate for this article because the city is what this is about.

However, I think we need to add to the article that the temperatures in the chart were taken at the inner harbor, and maybe include some kind of mention that temperatures are lower outside of the city and away from the water, whatever. I'm just trying to reach some kind of consensus here before this article is locked down and no one can edit it. We should provide as much information from the city itself, but when none is available, we can and should use information from the next best available source: the BWI airport.

This one may well earn a place in WP:LAME. Here's my thought for a compromise:

1.The inner harbor figures are used as the main temperatures.

2.We then add a brief piece after that saying something like "Due to the heat island effect, Baltimore's climate varies geographically, with (-put BWI figures here-) at the Baltimore airport"

I'm not sure about the exact wording, but does anyone think this could work out? Deltabeignet 04:38, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

I think it's a great idea, and yes I have been arguing for a long time here.68.33.19.105 18:00, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

I can accept this. Munch10]

As a nonparticipant but horrified/amused observer of this edit war (and as the one who added it to WP:LAME), I think this is a stellar suggestion. --Jfruh 15:54, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Two comments; -I've lived in Baltimore City and just outside of it. It reaches 100 degrees 1 or 2 times a year. If we are going to mention in a BALTIMORE article the KANSAS Is occasionaly over 100, then obviously we should mention that it occurs in Baltimore. The typical extremes, aside from records, should be mentioned.

-It says in the article that Baltimore rarely has temps below 10 or above 95. 10 degrees is much rarer then a 96-100 degree day. --The General 01:20, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

-In 21 years living in the city of Baltimore, it got above 95° at least once or twice every summer. Temperatures below 10° in the city are a once every 6-7 year occurrence. The AHS acknowledged this when they assigned Baltimore City as a part of USDA Zone 8, which has minimum winter extreme lows above 10° on average. Baltimore's is around 12°F.

-Baltimore dropped below 10 degrees in 2002, 2003, 2004, and 2005. These single digit temperatures are not as rare as you think. It's just that winter 2006 was very mild. Last time it was 100 was July 4, 2002. 68.33.19.47 04:52, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

-The following disputes your data--The General 21:12, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

-I Found some info. Go here: [1].

Under Product, click Preliminary Climatology Data, which is the past records for each day, grouyped in months.

Under Location, click on MD Science Center (this is the only place in the city of Baltimore where the NWS takes continuous records.)

Then under Timeframe click Archived Data. You can pick each month of each year going back to 2001, and then click "go", and it will show you three columns on your extreme left: DY (day), MAX (the days high temp), and MIN (the day's low temp).

So here is what the tables show for Baltimore City:

During the winter of 2001-2002, the lowest recorded temperature was 22°F, on Jan 1 & 2, 2002.

During the winter of 2002-2003, the lowest recorded temperature was 11°F, on Jan. 18th, 2003.

During the winter of 2003-2004, the lowest recorded temperature was 07°F, on Jan. 10th, 2004.

During the winter of 2004-2005, the lowest recorded temperature was 10°F, on Jan. 29th, 2005.

During the winter of 2005-2006, the lowest recorded temperature was 15°F, on Feb. 19th, 2006.

So yes, Baltimore had a freakishly warm winter in 2001-2002, and a colder-than-average one in 2003-2004. I did check, and yes, the last time it cracked the century mark in Baltimore was the 4th of July, 2002. But it also only got into the single digits ONCE in the past 5 years, and that was only a bit below 10°. If you AVERAGE these 5, the average winter minimum for the last 5 yrs in Baltimore City is 13°F. The unusually cold winters of the mid 1980s knock the average down into the 12° range, but this is why AHS and Arbor Day have given the CITY of Baltimore a Zone 8 rating.

And I think once every 5 years certainly qualifies as a RARE occurence.

--User:Strongbad1982 02:53, 12 May 2006 (CST)

The only reason your statistics are true is because the Science center is in the middle of a strong heat island. The station that NWS keeps all the data, including snowfall amounts, is BWI airport. Most US cities keep their true data at the airport stations. They don't just represent the climate of the airport, but also of all surrounding areas. So around Baltimore, maybe not in the center of the city, single digit temperatures occur every year or two. When going to the monthly data, have you ever thought of why it says "Baltimore", while the other station says "MD Science Center"? Because it is a better station which represents most of Baltimore's climate. 68.33.19.47 22:42, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

---

This has been re-hashed and re-hashed and re-hashed. The consensus of Wikipedia is that the article is on the CITY of Baltimore and not the Baltimore metro AREA, which is another article altogether. Therefore, the moderator has asked me to present climate data from a NWS location in the city proper when possible, and only use stats from another location when necessary. Everyone involed accepted this, so that is how the article will stay. In the CITY OF BALTIMORE, it has gotten below 10 once in the past 5 years. The fact still stands.

--User:Strongbad1982 10:04, 13 May 2006 (CST)

Any objection if I rewrite this section to be a straightforward description? As it stands, it seems to be a defense from some imaginary claim that Baltimore has an extreme climate. I would like to remove the comparisons to Kansas City -- uttely irrelevant. Let's just describe the facts, is that ok? kdogg36 00:18, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I took the liberty of locating a Köppen climate classification map, which does NOT say that Baltimore has a "temperate" or a "coastal" climate. A marine westcoast temperate climate is Cfb, and this map clearly shows Baltimore and the Chesapeake Bay area to be Humid Subtropical, or Cfa. Whoever keeps saying that Baltimore has a CfB climate, the facts point out otherwise.

Here is the Köppen climate map of the world:[2]

Here is another Koppen map of the world which is easier to see. It classifies Baltimore as Humid temperate. [3] Faz90 18:42, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

C climates as a group are called temperate/mesothermal climates, and Cfa is called a humid subtropical. "Temperate" is a broad term that includes all "C" climates (including the unrelated Mediterranian climate, Csa, Csb.) "Cf" climates are the "humid subtropical" group. The C denotes the temperature, and f denotes a "forested" climate (year round even precip) as opposed to an "s" (summer dry) or a "w" (winter dry) climate, and a is the first level of this (Cfb having cooler summer temps.) The Wikipedia article on the climate zones explains this petty well, and identifies Cfa as "humid subtropical" [4]. It's probably wise to keep the label in the article as "humid subtropical" and be specific than call it "temperate" and confuse readers (because Baltimore definetly doesn't have a Mediterranian Csa climate or a Marine West Coast Cfb climate!)

Humid Subtropical?

That city is cold. I'm sorry, I just can't take it. Baltimore winters are not for me. I basically don't want to be anywhere above the Mason-Dixon River between December and March.

Hate to break it to you, but Baltimore is below the Mason-Dixon line (which is not a river). The Mason-Dixon line is the border between Pennsylvania and Maryland. --Jfruh (talk) 18:21, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm also sorry to break it to you that the annual average low for Baltimore is 52°F. The Köppen climate classification system states that humid subtropical climates (Cfa specifically) apply to areas that have an annual average low above 50°F and have less than .5in variance monthly in precipitation. Baltimore City fits well within both of these, see the discussion above. Whether or not you "feel" cold has nothing to do with this article. And if you think Baltimore (where I happened to spend the first 21 years of my life) is cold, spend a winter in Denver (where I live now). No comparison, it gets WAY colder in a lot of the country and Baltimore.

Yeah, you can talk about "Koppen climate average this" and "theoretical study that," but Baltimore is frigid. The last winter I was there ('03) we got four feet of snow and the B&O Railroad Museum actually collapsed. I am done with Maryland winters, period.

I moved to the Deep South in 2004, and I am not going back.

Oh, and by Mason-Dixon River I meant the Potomac.

This article reads like an advertisement

The tone of this article makes it read like a travel brochure. Also, the section about the mayor does not seem objective either. --JetPackRocketBaby 05:49, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Reaching 100,000 pop

First, I'm not sure this is that important, or belongs in such a prominent spot.

Second, I would dispute the statement outright. If one includes the adjacent Northern Liberties, Southwark and Spring Garden districts to Philadelphia's population, it clearly beats Baltimore to 100,000. These districts were adjacent to the original Phila platting, and were quickly "swallowed up" by the city proper.

I could find no equivalent places (Fells Point?) for Balt listed in the historic census figures to possibly boost Baltimore's pop figures, so based on what people probably thought of as "phila" back then, I would change it.

But going by official US Census, it is correct! (we Philadelphias just can't let Baltimore get a leg up!)Redneb 18:22, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Well we cant use your reasoning either. Northern Liberties, Southwark and Spring Garden, we not part of the city of Philadelphia untill after 1854, when all municipalites in Philadelphia County were merged into the City of Philadelphia, so prior to the 1860 census they would have all been listed seperatly. So any census figures prior to 1860 for Philadelphia would have only refered to the city as then, the area between the Delaware and Schukill and Vine and South Streets.

In census figures throught time, the pouplation of a city refers to the pouplation of the city proper, and not adjecent municipalites.

As for Fells Point, if you were to find any census info on the town, it would be simply amazing. As the town of Fells Point merged with Baltimore Town in 1773.

Anyway for three census Baltimore was the second largest "Urban Place", as stated by the Census Bureau, 1830, 1840, and 1850. And the nmubers based on those census figures would agree with the statement. Philadelphia does not reatke the 2nd position untill 1860 in which it more then doubles it pouplation from 1850, coinsiding with the 1854 considlation. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 04:07, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I realize the places listed above were not part of Philadelphia at that time, but my "reasoning" is still sound-including contiguous built up areas, what is now referred to as "urbanized areas". All I'm interested in is a good "apples to apples" comparison! 207.13.211.199 19:33, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

No your reasoning is still flawed and it would could neevr work for statistical or comparision puropese. Your comparing multiple jurisditcions to a single one, on the the basis, that the multiple are constitued a singal urban area. It would be like today Comparing the Boston Metro Area with just the City of Jacksonville, and then saying that Boston is a bigger city then Jacksonville, even though Jacksville City Proper has more people living in it then Boston City Proper (Boston, 589,141 (2000) / Jacksonville, 735,617 (2000)/ Boston Metro (MSA) 4,391,344 /Jacksonville Metro (MSA) 1,122,750). Also your tying to employ a comcept that was not first though of untill the 1870, and not employed by census untill 1930, see [5], also you could nevber get an accurate number or an estime based on the data. As in the case for Philadelphia their were other section within the couldty at the time that would have had similar "urban" characitersitics as Philadelphia did as well as had rural charactersitic that would using the idea of the urbn area could not be included in the idea of a metro area for Philadelphia, and while you could find these pouplation data it's inclusion would be subjective. As for Baltimore, you would find this more dificult, as the city of Baltimore at various times represented the majory of the extent of it's own urban, area that has not allways been the case, as sigicfnat urbanized areas lied outside the borders fo the city yet could be considered as an urban area of the greater Baltimore area, many of these areas have now since become parts of the city it's self due to the expansion of the cties boarders. But these areas would not have seperate pouplation data, for the fact that they were not incorperated areas and would have just been included as part of the Baltimore County, which up untill really the middle of Last century, maintained a sigificant rural charactersitics. SO for the most part the idea of getting a realistic "apples to apples" comparison, is for the most part impossible. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 06:10, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Row houses

It would make me happy if someone would write something about the prevalence of row houses in Baltimore under "Culture". As I understand it, a large part of the culture was shaped by the row house and the "stoop" and socializing while cleaning the front steps. Loodog 17:21, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Mencken's former house at 1524 Hollins Street is a rowhouse. Source About the H.L. Mencken House Davidbober 02:13, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Some mention of prevalance of formstone on row houses (and now it's removal) would need to be added too. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.251.163.194 (talk • contribs) .

Agree would be something worth mention, rather then sniping about the amout of snow. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 06:03, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

ISTR a Mencken quote (will need to source it) about row houses... something about how every Baltimorean living in a two-storey row house aspires to live in a THREE-storey row house. Davidbober 22:32, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Also something about painted screens. Or perhaps something about being the City of Neighbhorhoods - which is why john waters movies are all filmed in baltimore, in attempt to caricaturize each eighborhood's personality.

Poly vs City

I was wondering whether the recent changes from City to Poly were some rivalry/edit war heating up, or whether we've long had some incorrect info here, or whether we're just seeing a change from one claim to another based on someone else's nth-hand info. So for the record, it appears HLMencken did indeed go to Poly.[6] DMacks 02:33, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Speaking of which, there's been an amusing-to-watch slow-mo revert war over whether Poly or City is the "flagship" school of the Baltimore public school system. It's not as hilarious as the war over the city's climate, but it's good fun. How about we just list both of them? ---Jfruh (talk) 00:32, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

"Crane City, U.S.A."?

Is Baltimore really called "Crane City, U.S.A."? I've never heard anyone call it that.

Me neither, although if somebody could cite a source that might help. Davidbober 23:30, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

'== Club Music =='

Nobody has mention Baltimore's popular Club Music. It's an art native to baltimore, that should definitly be researched added in Culture.

Is club music native to Baltimore in particular? Davidbober 23:31, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

club music? No. Baltimore club music, most definately, and as of the summer of 2006, is considered slated to become the biggest thing in the youth music scene in New York, London, Amersterdam and Berlin. there should definately be something on this included in the article.

Miss USA?!

Would anybody object to the removal of the section on baltimore hosting the miss usa pageant in the years 2005 and 2006? This seems insignifigant to the extreme and its inclusion in this article is actually a tad bit embarrassing.

Keep While it could be considered embarassing by some city residents, it is factual. Taken to its logical conclusion, if we delete everything considered embarassing to cities (crime figures, etc.) then we'd be eliminating facts from Wikipedia. Davidbober 23:34, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

this may be factual, but is completely insignifigant. shall we list every convention that occurs in baltimore every year? hosting the miss USA pageant is not embarassing; its inclusion in this article is embarassing. it has no place in this article.

I agree that it's not all that important. I don't object to it being included, but it doesn't deserve a point heading of it's own. (Zms676 14:38, 6 September 2006 (UTC))

Baltimore also hosted the Miss USA pageant in 1969 at what was then called the Civic Center. 68.100.9.211 04:11, 17 January 2007 (UTC) UD101

Crime

I deleted the following:

"A recent newscast e-survey found that over 75% of respondents did not feel safe in a Baltimore which is not improving. [7]"

because e-surveys are not at all scientific, and this contributes to a biased presentation of crime in the city.

(Anonymous, 20:52, 31 August 2006 (UTC))

Agreed. Local TV news "internet polls" are not encyclopedic sources of information. If there is alternative reputable research to cite on crime statistics & public perception then this should be cited. Davidbober 01:09, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

OK, more changes (I deleted the e-survey as Anonymous). I think that I have resolved the verification issue, so I deleted the warning. I don't know if there's a policy for who usually does that, so pardon me if that was inappropriate.

Here's what I did:

• Changed first sentence of second paragraph from "While murders have been relatively static, other categories of crime in Baltimore have been declining." to what it is now. I thought it was strange that the first paragraph talks about a decline in murders, but the second paragraph starts off by saying that murders are static. I think the new sentence still serves the same purpose (shows that crime is declining, but still very high) without the internal conflict.

• Combined sentences and added citation in second paragraph, second sentence.

• Added a statement about the political motivations of some of the accusations of the books being cooked. I agree that its important to note the potential controversy, but I also think that people who don't bother to follow the links should be warned that many of these charges seem to be coming from O'Malley's political opponents. I linked a Washington Post article examining the political motivations.

• Added two s for facts that I couldn't verify.

• Consolidated the last two paragraphs into one coherent paragraph. I thought that the paragraphs, as written, seemed like a random string of facts. Now, hopefully, they tell more of a story about witness intimidation. The note about the conviction of the criminals is put in there partially to balance out the negative elements, and partially to seque into discussion of the dvd.

• Deleted the comment that said the city attorney stated that the city was "dominated by terrorists" because it was a gross mischaracterization of the quote in the cited article.

• Deleted a lot of extraneous information about Stop Snitchin' because it didn't seem necessary to an overview about crime. If people are interested about learning more about the video, they can follow the link.

(Zms676 15:42, 1 September 2006 (UTC))

Population in 2005?

There is an inconsistency wrt the population in 2005. In the infobox, I read:

Population
City (2005) 635,815

But in the text at the top of the article, it is written "As of 2005, the population was 641,943 [...]"

Moreover, in Section 6 (Demographics), it is written:

• 1950 - 949,708
• ...
• 2000 - 651,154
• 2005 - 635,815

while the text at the top reads "[...] but higher than the century-long low of 636,251 in 2000." The same number is found in Section 1 (History). But in Sect.1, the 1950 value is consistent with the table of Sect.6. However, no reference is given in Sect.1 and intro to the figures of 2000, 2004 and 2005. I found the number 636,251 in a webpage (Maryland Data Sort By Regional Council), but it is associated to the date 2004. According to this document, 636,251 is a "2004 ESTIMATE". This website says that 636,251 is the population in 2005. SkyscraperPage.com provides the number 636,251 as the current population of Baltimore. Several other websites use the number 636,251 as an indicator of current population, but it is sometimes written "estimated population in 2004". The conclusion of my research is: 636,251 is definitely not the population of 2000. Moreoer, the figures of Sect.1 and intro are based on estimations rather than sensus. Additionally, the population tends to decrease since sixties and it has not "bottommed out" in 2000.

In this article, the figures from the table of Sect.6 are consistently used in the text of Sect.6. These particular figures correspond to those found in the Top 50 Cities in the U.S. by Population and Rank, which reproduces figures from U.S. Census Bureau. In my opinion, these values are more reliable than those of Sect.1 and intro. --Earendel 13:53, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

The discrepency may be because the at some point in the first half of the 2000s the city got the census bureau to revise one of its population estimates (remember, the figures from years not ending in zero are estimates, not the "actual enumeration" of the decennial census). I think the 2004 population estimate was revised upwards in late 2005. Thus, there are probably two different figures for the city's 2004 pop. floating around out there, one of which was released in 2005. --Jfruh (talk) 15:20, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Anne Tyler

still lives in baltimore

Culture

hon racist?! “Some Baltimoreans believe that "Hon" has racist origins..” this seem to me to be, at best, an example of original research, and at worst, an outlandish claim. If a verifiable citation cannot be provided, this should be removed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.248.8.190 (talk)

GA failed

1. Well written? Fail

2. Factually accurate? Fail

3. Broad in coverage? Fail

4. Neutral point of view? Pass

5. Article stability? Pass

6. Images? Fail

Additional comments :

• Fix the tag of these images Image:Balt. Battle Monument 1a.jpgFIXED, Image:Washington Monument, 1849, from Federal Hill 1a.jpgFIXED, Image:Balt. Fire 1904 - West from Pratt and Gay Streets 3a.jpgFIXED, Image:Balt. Fire 1904 - West from Pratt and Gay Streets 1906, 2 years later a.jpgFIXED. This image : Image:NationalBohemianCoaster.gif needs a fair use rationaleFIXED.
• The population is given too much emphasis in the Lead section : see As of 2005, the population was 641,943, down slightly from 643,304 in 2004, but higher than the century-long low of 636,251 in 2000. The Baltimore–Towson metropolitan area, as of 2004, was estimated to have a population of 2.6 million. and After New York City, Baltimore was the second city in the United States to reach a population of 100,000, (followed by New Orleans, Philadelphia, Boston). Baltimore was the second largest city in the nation until 1870, when it was surpassed by Philadelphia. Baltimore remained one of the 10 largest cities in the United States from 1790 until about 1970. The city and metropolitan area currently rank in the top 20 in terms of population. FIXED
• The previous point makes the lead not comply with WP:LEAD.FIXED
• There is no general reference which lets the reader with no background information and the reviewer with no material to cross- or double-check evidences. This cannot be acceptable for GA material as many points would then become original research as no source is cited for the material used.

  Just an example of that : The relatively shorter distance between Baltimore and the Caribbean colonies allowed swift transport and minimized the spoilage of flour.

  There are more examples.

  In Culture there are more examples.

• Inline citations are concentrated in the Crime subsection and do not represent the totality of the material present in the article, more are needed.
• Paragraph starting with In the early part of the 21st century, Baltimore is undergoing... changes the verb tense and goes into present which is somewhat clashing with the rest of the section.FIXED
• In Law and government could we have the reasons behind the fact that the city is considered to be a county or the time when it became one?
• In City Crime Rankings (12th Edition) ranks Baltimore second only to Detroit among the most dangerous American cities over 500,000 in population. is it possible to know out of how many towns (for not many are over 500k people)?Is this really necessary? Other good articles don't include this
• Culture section is too huge compared to the rest of the article (make a subarticle and keep only the best).FIXED (made it an article by itself and referencesd it)
• Expansion of Neighborhoods would be appreciated. Just situating the city is already a plus.FIXED
• Education shouldn't only be listing the schools/universities/colleges but giving facts about its quality or its standards or its history.
• Same as previous point for the Media, Museums and attractions, Sports teams sections.
• Baltimore in fiction should be prose and not bullet point (IMO, it should be removed as it isn't notable trivia).FIXED, moved to it's own section

In light of such a body of work to do, I cannot pass this article. Please feel free to contact me to have more insights, comments or to discuss certain aspects. Come back to GAC when the article is improved. Lincher 01:29, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Survey on proposal to make U.S. city naming guidelines consistent with others countries

There is a survey in progress at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (settlements) to determine if there is consensus on a proposed change to the U.S. city naming conventions to be consistent with other countries, in particular Canada.

This proposal would allow for this article to be located at Baltimroe instead of Baltimore, Maryland, bringing articles for American cities into line with articles for cities such as Paris and Toronto.--DaveOinSF 16:49, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

However the proposal would allow U.S. cities to be inconsistent with the vast majority of other U.S. cities and towns, which (with a few exceptions) all use the "city, state" convention. -Will Beback 23:40, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Clarify republican congressman?

This is confusing. Why not give a date? All three are Democrats; a Republican has not represented a significant portion of Baltimore since Robert L. Ehrlich, Jr. stepped down from the 2nd Congressional District seat to run for governor — a position he won by defeating Kathleen Kennedy Townsend. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 131.107.0.73 (talk)

The whole thing was really more info than needed, especially now, four years after the fact. I trimmed this part down. --Jfruh (talk) 19:28, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

NPOV

NPOV Issue: "One of Baltimore's greatest moments occurred..." Tagged "History" section. Apollosfire 19:24, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Off-loading from culture section

I’m glad to see the culture information redirected to its own article and paired down to a bare essential within the main article. Unfortunately, the culture section within the main article is now quite incorrect. “some point out that such uniqueness in dialect is found (at least in part) throughout Maryland and that, furthermore, the name of this dialect should reflect this” No, actually. The further away one gets from the city itself, this “dialect” dissipates. There is no such thing as a maryland accent. The accents on the eastern shore, washington suburbs and within the appalachians (geographically and population wise, more than half of the state) are not even related to the accents of the central part of the state (which itself does actually share some elements with the baltimorean accent), and the accent becomes exponentially more prevalent within the city and the working class inlaying suburbs populated by working class population shifts out of the city within the past fifty years. The accent itself is distinctively baltimorean, rather than maryland in general. The accent is not “(at least in part)” found throughout the state. It is found, in part, in areas within in 30 miles of the city proper, with the city itself being the focal point.

It is as though the author of the new culture section had a bone to pick with the notion of the previous wording, and the new writing betrays this. This is no more objective than the previous section, and arguably less correct.

Also, I am unsure as to why Little Italy would be granted a mention in this “paired down” section over all the other distinct districts within the city, other than to mention Nancy Pelosi; which itself doesn’t seem particularly relevant to baltimore’s overall culture to warrant a mention in this two paragraph section. Yes, this is big news this week (01/05/07), but will be quickly forgotten. Also, the mention of “The” Washington Monument, rather than “A” Washington Monument, or “Baltimore’s” Washington Monument could be quite confusing to people more familiar with another Washington Monument forty miles away.

A new culture section, roughly the same size as the present one, should be completely rewritten. 216.133.97.133 05:16, 6 January 2007 (UTC)adam

New grafs I added; edit away

I actually think a few neutral but interesting summary grafs on the city's culture would be useful on the main page--so I typed in a few myself. Edit away if you don't like them, of course. Based on some of the discussion here, I guess some folks may be uncomfortable with any discussion of the local dialect. I defer to the moderators.

Also, I tried not to make the text read like a tourist brochure. However, it does read pretty "positive." After that huge and rather disturbing (though accurate) section on crime, it seemed like we could use a calmer segue into the actual culture of the city. After all, people really do live pretty happily in Baltimore (including me for most of my life), and it's a pretty attractive town, with affordable housing prices, too...

FYI, I think the separate page on the city's culture is terrific, and the pictures are great! You get a feel for the city that text just can't provide. I didn't touch it, I'm just complimenting it.

I did add a graf in the History section, right after the War of 1812, talking about how the city really became important after the National Road and the B&O Railroad were built.

I also slipped in, right at the top, a little phrase indicating that Baltimore's metro area was not the third largest in the northeast, that it was outpaced by Boston and DC. It seemed the right thing to do after the statement that the "city" was the third largest after NYC and Philly.

This Baltimore page is getting better all the time, and I hope I have not hindered that. Wikipedia is cool.

Jlevy 06:55, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Expensive???

Generall speaking... Is Baltimore an expensive place to live?Debit Card 20:20, 18 January 2007 (UTC) This may be a very stupid question, but im British and planning on spending some time in America..So price is very important. Thanks for any help given. Debit Card 18/01/2007

Skyline Picture

Does anyone else think that the skyline picture is below-par? You can barely make out the buildings of downtown. Most other city articles on Wikipedia contain downtown skyline views. I have a few pictures I can contribute if there is enough support to change the picture. Irteagle102704 01:37, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I picked that one because I was trying to find ANY picture of Baltimore that is NOT taken from inside the Inner Harbor. The tallest buildings front the water, so all the skyline pictures taken from the south don't show many buildings at all, and Baltimore's skyline looks like a much smaller city. Pictures from behind show all the high rises that are blocked from the south, and you see how many more skyscrapers Baltimore actually has. If someone can find a better picture of Baltimore (preferrably taken from the north, east, NW or NE, that'd be great! I agree the pic is not very clear and could have been taken closer. strongbad1982 10:05, 19 January 2007 (MST)

I've had that problem when trying to find pictures for other reasons, The view from the east, looking west towards downtown, is a decent view, I just can't find an image from that angle that's free-use. Also, I believe that a few pictures taken farther out in the harbor, like near Fell's Point provide a better vantage point of the city. I'll see if I can find a free-use image :) Irteagle102704 18:16, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Somone should get a shot from the symphony center roof, It makes it look like an actual city gradually increasing in building size towards the center.

What is going on with the featured Baltimore photograph?! There was absolutely nothing wrong with the inner harbor shot. Whether or not you think the buildings looked big enough, or whether or not you think the inner harbor is reflective of the “real” baltimore, it is the most recognized view of the city. Thus, it should the featured photograph. “NOT” the back of cars on the highway, be it the JFX, or Northbound I-95, or any other ridiculous shot.

-and I have no idea how to "sign" my comments. If that was really important, wikipedia would not allow unsigned participation in the discussion pages. But if someone would like to go in and spend the time adding my IP address to this discussion, instead of working on making this a better article, have a blast with where your priorities are set. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.133.97.223 (talk • contribs) 05:38, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't know about anyone else, but the picture that is up right now, from the side, is stunning. I love it! Beautiful profile, and it certainly shows off more buildings than the Inner Harbor shot, where the main problem is that all the tallest buildings are directly up against the water, and block all of the buildings behind them, making it look like Baltimore's skyline contains 6-7 large buildings. I vote to keep the current photo: very colorful, and a unique angle. (User:Strongbad1982 10:50, 11 February 2007 (MST))

Very much agreed, strongbad, this was the angle I was originally looking for, but I couldnt find a public domain image from this view. My only problem with the image is that its a little bright, but otherwise, this shot is amazing. Irteagle102704 07:39, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Can we go back to the other skyline picture?

I think this one is pretty unappealing. The other at least showed the harbor, if from a great height. This one is mostly expressway and rooftops... (I'll look around on the Web for a good shot with no copyright problems, but I thought the other one was OK.)

I myself, prefer the other picture from the expressway, It showed the skyline, much better than either of the other two, on neither of which you can see the skyline clearly. Most other city pages on Wikipedia have an image that was not taken from far away from the downtown center. Next time I go to Baltimore though, I will be taking many pics, for the mean time I'm changing it back. Irteagle102704 04:57, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I have a very good skyline picture to add.... The architecture in Baltimore is so beautiful there should be MANY skyline pictures. I can contribute a bunch !

I put up the one from Fayette Street. I took it myself (with the shot tower in the foreground). Now someone has put the one which I had under architecture from atop the Utz building on a cloudy day, which I took myself as well, and made it the main pic. This picture is clearly not as good as the one from Fayette St. I am going to make the Fayette Street shot the main pic again. And whoever called the "Nightlife" article a tourist brochure is an idiot because the nightlife is part of the city culture. Just as the restaurants are part of the city culture. It's not advertising that it is better than anything else it is just information as to where it exists.

Thanks for the good work on the images. I really do like the one from Fayette St. I'll try to take some good ones this summer from my boat, farther down the Patapsco River (what I consider the natural and historic entrance to the city). Just a note--it would be helpful if people signed their comments here. Thanks!--Apostlemep12 22:13, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Baltimore's Population

Baltimore is not the third most populated city on the East Coast, contrary to what this article states. Jacksonville, Florida has a total population of 782,623, while Baltimore's is 641,943. Baltimore is the fourth largest city on the Eastern seaboard after New York, Philadelphia and Jacksonville. I am correcting the error. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.8.100.171 (talk • contribs) 05:21, January 25, 2007 (UTC)

That's right, you correct it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.145.176.180 (talk • contribs) 23:09, February 6, 2007 (UTC)

Baltimore revitalization investigation

Hey everybody. I'm the student of Moscow State University (Department of foreign countries), Russia, and i'm on my graduation work at present. This sience work is dedicated to american cities revitalization and redevelopment. Also it is tightly connected with Baltimore. The main target is to learn the ways of revitalization in Baltimore, Oakland, Pittsburgh etc.

So, dear Baltimorers or someone who interests in it, could you please describe me the way of redevelopment in your city? The main point for me is to know all about measurement that were made. When exactly did it begin? What were the steps to revitalize the city? Was the downtown take down and rebuild? Were the citizens settled apart? I'll appreciate very much for any detailed information.

Any kind of information would be very valuable for me! Thank you. Simon Freydlin Freydlins 18:42, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

P.S. Feel free to write me on this theme: boardpizza@mail.ru  And please forgive me for my poor english.

BELIEVE, hon

I am not taking on another article at the time, but in a quick check I didn't see any reference to the entire "BELIEVE" campaign that is posted on all city vehicles and buildings (and followed by some people having personal bumper stickers with ", hon" appended). — RevRagnarok ^{Talk Contrib} 17:50, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

A short paragraph about this campaign is now appended to the article's Crime section. --Adavidb 03:20, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Wasn't Philadelphia always the largest city until the 20th century?

I've always been taught that Philadelphia was the largest city until New York became bigger in the early 20th century or thereabouts and that Baltimore more or less followed the lead of Philadelphia in many areas. I think all the population statistics floating around are suspect because I've read many things pre and post Revolution where this is pretty much assumed. My google search for "1830 census" brought me to http://www2.census.gov/prod2/decennial/documents/1830a-01.pdf where this shows Philly to be larger than Balto but smaller than NY. But the main point of the link I show here is that it doesn't really jibe with the 1830 census link of this article (even considering the surrounding county). So I'm somewhat confused by all the population statistics thrown around in this article. Read pretty much anything written before the 20th century that references the population issue and Philly is always assumed to be largest city and the initial destination for most immigrants. There should probably be some blurb to point out the point I make here. --Blake 69.139.238.47 20:18, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

So, you think the numbers derived from actual census data are suspect because they don't jibe with what you believe? For actual census numbers in an easy-to-read form, see: Largest Cities in the United States by Population by Decade. Part of the issue is that Philadelphia wasn't consolidated into its current boundries until 1854; before that, the actual city of Philadelphia only consisted of modern-day Center City. Northern Liberties and Southwark, both parts of Philadelphia today, were separate cities then, and both were in the top ten list of cities for the first two censuses. --Jfruh (talk) 20:50, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

19th Century Political History

"Baltimore has been a Democratic stronghold for over 150 years, with Democrats dominating every level of government."

This simply is not true. Aside from the obvious Republican mayors we have had over time, during the 1850s the government was strongly dominated by the American or "Know-Nothing" party. The city was overrun and controlled by violent political neighborhood gangs which took complete "responsibility" for managing voting in their wards. It's hard to even call it voter fraud because nothing resembling non-fraud took place. Anyway... someone should help the history on this one. If no one else, I'll see what I can do. --Apostlemep12 13:55, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Baltimore accent

One thing outsiders quickly notice is that the locals refer to their city as "Bawlmer" or "Ballmer," dropping with the "t" for the most part.

As a Baltimore native myself, I can attest that this is sort of a myth. While there are people here who say "Bawlmer," the more common pronunciation I hear sounds something like "Baldimer," the "t" hardening into a "d" sound. This has been my personal observation; I can't back it up with research, so I'll refrain from changing the article. marbeh raglaim 22:12, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

It really depends on what part of the city you're in. I'm born and raised in the southeast part of the city (Fells Point/Canton area), and I've heard "Bawlmer" more than enough times. Wildthing61476 16:03, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps, though "Baldimer" does seem to be the norm on the local radio stations. ("98 Rock, Baldimer's rock station"). marbeh raglaim 03:10, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I say "Baldimer" but im more from the parkville area so i dont no if that can be included or not(ForeverDEAD 13:09, 9 September 2007 (UTC))

"Bodymore" as nickname

What kind of source is sufficient to support inclusion of "Bodymore" as a city nickname? I reverted its most recent addition, leading to commentary by its contributor on my talk page. Let's get some wider consensus here rather than just my private response to him. DMacks 05:47, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I support your revert for the reasons you stated. "Bodymore" is a nickname for the city in the television series, without evidence that it is prominently used in reality. —Adavidb 12:01, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

This seems to be a TV phenomenon; as noted above, something that sounds like "Baldimer" is the prevalent pronunciation, and this sounds like a corruption (if that's possible) or an exaggeration of the usual pronunciation. At the same time, new things pop up; Charm City was coined in the 1980's, I believe ironically, by radio jocks. Wombatcat 12:17, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I have never seen the Wire, I am sure there may be one or two others who havn't as well; so the nickname "Bodymore" is totally unfamiliar. The other nicknames in the article are very recognizable. I remember when it was called the "Monumental City" by local cabbies and porters who worked on trains in the northeast corridor.Marylandstater 00:29, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

As a native Baltimorean, I have heard Bodymore and Murdaland quite often. (Not just since the Wire came on) Josephabradshaw 08:12, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

John Waters

Why is there no mention of the writer and director John Waters? He has put Baltimore on the map (whether you like his films or not). He deserves at least a mention. User:Alex Davis 17 July 2007 Sorry dont know how to sign and date properly!—Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.71.224.209 (talk • contribs) 14:23, July 17, 2007 (UTC)

To sign and date, simply end with four tilde (~) characters. Waters is mentioned in at least two subarticles, Culture of Baltimore and Baltimore in Fiction. I added a sentence about him at the end of the Culture section. —Adavidb 22:35, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Performing arts

To fill a surprising gap, I have added some very basic information on a couple of the main performing arts groups in the city. Feel free to expand and otherwise fix! --Wspencer11 (talk to me...) 21:18, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

land tenure?

I have long been aware, somewhere at the back of my mind, that Baltimore has a west-end-of-London-style of land tenure, where many house owners do not own their land but rather have it on long-term (99-year?) leases from a ground landlord. Is there any truth in this? Doops | talk 06:51, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Ah, partially covered here: ground rent. Should also be mentioned in Baltimore, I fancy, though. Doops | talk 06:55, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, it probably should. I just updated the ground rent article to reflect the fact that a recent law just passed forbidding the creation of new ground rents; it also place restrictions on existing ones, but some research needs to be done to establish just what.

Ground rent in Maryland (the vast majority of which are in Baltimore City) was nothing more than a little quirk until fairly recently. Rents can't be more than $240 a year, and most are much lower; historically, most have been held in vast portfolios as a low-risk, low-return investment by institutional investors (I think the Catholic Diocese was a major holder), and by law the rent holder must sell the rights to the rent to the homeowner for three year's worth of rent or thereabouts if the homeowner wants to buy. In the last five years, as real estate prices in Baltimore have shot up, some people realized that they could foreclose very quickly on homes with delinquent ground rent (even if the amount delinquent was less than $100) and sell the house without having to pay the home owner for any of the equity they had established. Because the laws hadn't been updated in so long, the requirements for attempting to contact the homeowners before taking legal action were not particularly strict. This caused the recent flurry of legislation regarding ground rents. --Jfruh (talk) 14:35, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

I should add that, while I'm not sure how it works in London (isn't there something there about how the Queen or some peers or something really own the land itself in perpetuity?), ground rent in Baltimore was strictly speaking a creation of the landowner. That is, if you owned both a house and the land under it, or if you owned land and build a house on it, you would create a ground rent by selling the house but not the land. It was a common practice in the early 20th century and supposedly allowed developers to sell houses cheaply (since they would be guaranteed a revenue stream more or less in perpetuity even after selling the house). Creation of new ground rents upticked again in the last few years after being really rare for most of the last century -- again, cashing in on the hot real estate market, generally at the $240 annual maximum, and not noticably lowering the prices of the houses being sold. The recent legislation has banned the creation of new ground rents, and though parts of the law are being challenged in court, that part is not, as far as I know. --Jfruh (talk) 14:40, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

County seat

I have always understood that the City of Baltimore is not in a county. So how can it be a county seat? --Wspencer11 (talk to me...) 17:58, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Baltimore is an independent city. Here's the response to this question that I've provided to another person on the Counties of Maryland talk page. Although I was following how the Census Bureau treats Baltimore for administrative purposes, perhaps I should remove the name of Baltimore City from the template, since its inclusion seems to create some confusion. But...on second thought, here's how the State of Maryland lists "Baltimore City" on its Local governments: Counties page.

Taken from the text on this same page: "Twenty-three counties and Baltimore City make up the twenty-four main local jurisdictions found in Maryland. Baltimore City, although a municipality, has been considered on a par with county jurisdictions since the adoption of the Maryland Constitution of 1851." →Lwalt ^♦ talk 20:00, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Parallel discussion going on on Template talk:County Seats of Maryland, probably best to keep all talk on this subject over there... --Jfruh (talk) 20:10, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Baltimore's Jewish population?

I've been watching a lot of Ace of Cake lately & it seems that every episode has a couple of bar/bat-mitzva cakes, I hadn't realized that Baltimore had a large Jewish population. Am I reading too much into a TV show? 24.124.29.130 08:06, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

No, you are not! Baltimore has a substantial Jewish population and has had for a very long time. Barry Levinson's Avalon & Liberty Heights both go into this a good deal as I recall (haven't seen them in years, though); Levinson himself is from Baltimore. Joseph Meyerhoff is another good example of the Jewish community and its impact on the city. --Wspencer11 (talk to me...) 12:16, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

It should be noted that most of the city's historic Jewish population has in recent decades migrated to northwestern Baltimore County (and thus strictly speaking outside the purview of this article, though obviously close enough to employ Duff and the Ace of Cakes crew!). The city's traditional Jewish strongholds of Reservoir Hill and Corned Beef Row have very little Jewish presence left today. There are still Jews in the city, obviously, me being one of them, but for a distinctive Jewish city neighborhood, all you really have left is the part of Pikesville inside the city limits, I think, though there's also a not insignificant Orthodox community in Mt. Washington. --Jfruh (talk) 22:35, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject

I've proposed a Baltimore WikiProject over at WPMD, if anyone is interested in helping to create and maintain it, let me know there.-Jeff ^(talk) 16:01, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

As an update to my previous comment, I've started a Baltimore task force of WikiProject Maryland at WP:WPMD/BAL.-Jeff ^(talk) 04:06, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

"Charm City"

The article should explain where the epithet "Charm City" comes from. Badagnani (talk) 04:05, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

The source citation with the "Charm City" nickname in the Infobox provides plenty of explanation and links for further information. —Adavidb 13:12, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Baltimore/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Rated B Find GFDL replacements for Image:Seal of Baltimore.jpg and Image:Baltimore.gif. Reduce usage of subsections in favor of complete paragraphs under main heading. Implement properly formatted references. WP:CITET Please do something about the long, bulleted lists. Fork to list articles or delete. Review WP:NOT and remove content that does not belong.

Last edited at 14:34, 26 October 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 14:19, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

New Picture

Can someone please put a new picture up as the main picture. The one that is there currently is not very good. Boston, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, and New York have an organized montage of pictures for their profile picture. Maybe someone could do something like that? oldlinestate 06:11, 8 September 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Oldlinestate (talk • contribs)

I put a new picture up for the time being - one that is a little bit more vibrant. I'll see if I can come up with a cool collage photo to go up there, although I don't know if I have enough good original material. oldlinestate 06:49, 8 September 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Oldlinestate (talk • contribs)

The collage picture that is currently posted is definitely a huge improvement over the single skyline picture that had been up there for ages. However, the collage could use a little work. First off, the current skyline picture in the collage is not very attractive and could be replaced by a picture showing the classic skyline view of Baltimore as viewed from Federal Hill. Also, while the Penn Station picture in the collage is good, a picture of Fort McHenry would be much more suitable. I would undertake these tasks myself, however I have no experience creating collages on wikipedia unsigned comment added by jampilot

Lake Trout?

Surely there should be a section about Baltimore's greatest culinary achievement: lake trout. I think this article has been whitewashed, removing all references to lake trout. Lake trout is an important part of Baltimore history and a staple of Baltimore cuisine and commerce. My suspicion is that the Crab Fisherman's Consortium (CFuC) has intentionally altered this article to remove any reference to its only major competitor in the Maryland seafood industry. Can we have a poll on whether lake trout should be in the article's intro? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.104.27.36 (talk) 16:20, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I was born in Baltimore and lived there most of my life..I`ve never heard anything about lake trout there..my guess is you own a restaurant and are trying to promote it Lonepilgrim007 (talk) 00:18, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

76.104.27.36 may be making a joke or even promoting a restaurant in a weirdly roundabout way, but Lonepilgrim007 is flat out lying about Lake Trout. There is more lake trout then crabs in bal'mer. There is more lake trout than aggravated assault. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.138.223.87 (talk) 20:12, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

I assure you I wasn`t lying..I certainty meant no disrespect..I do seem to recall seeing it advertised in the city but I wasn`t aware it was a cultural icon..I guess what has me confused is I`m pretty sure there are no native fresh water trout left in the Baltimore area although there are stocked trout which I doubt end up in eating establishments...they must come from somewhere else. As for crabs, personally I don`t associate them with Maryland as I get mine in North Carolina..the real Baltimore seafood delicacy was oysters but the big ones were fished out years ago. 24.240.171.194 (talk) 21:08, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

Lying is an intentional act of deception which is not the same thing as making a factional mistake or error..I make it a point to try to know what I`m talking about before I speak..studying history one thing I`ve learned is place names don`t change..Herring Run was once a trout stream...I assure you that was a long time ago. 75.139.90.1 (talk) 05:38, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

Mayor Dixon

Surely it would be possible to find a better photo of Mayor Sheila Dixon. It looks very little like the Ms Dixon I know162.66.50.4 (talk) 15:47, 3 January 2008 (UTC)PeterB

What picture are you talking about? There aren't any on this page! If you're referring to the three pics on the Sheila Dixon page, well, you may be right. The problem is that Wikipedia can only use images that are (a) in the public domain or (b) released under some other license that allows for free reuse (like the GPL or the Creative Commons license). This means that you cannot do what most people's first instinct is, which is to just find a good picture on the Internet and use that -- someone has the rights to that image and may not want you to do it!

Many of the pictures on Wikipedia are taken by editors and contributed to the project under appropriate licenses. Two of the pics on the Sheila Dixon page fall into this category. (The third was taken by a US Federal Govt. employee on the job and is thus in the public domain.) If you know Mayor Dixon, why not take her picture and then contribute it? --Jfruh (talk) 16:34, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

The name/history

Is it worthwhile to also note that the name also means "Baltic Sea" in Russian? I am thus casting doubts whether the original name history (Baltimore, County Cork) is correct. Alepik (talk) 01:34, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Baltimore is named after the British family that held the title Baron Baltimore; these were the first proprietors of the Maryland colony. Their title in turn dervied from the city in Ireland. This is all very well documented; I'm not sure why you would doubt it. --Jfruh (talk) 16:16, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

OK but a web search doesn't make it clear whether the first Baron Baltimore took his title from some informal placename in County Longford (where he was evidently granted land) or from the seaside village in County Cork (where he evidently had no land). Jack Waugh (talk) 14:07, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I thought it was Lord Baltimore--Lonepilgrim007 (talk) 00:21, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

'lord' is a generic term for all the british peerage, barons to dukes inclusive. thus, he might have been addressed as baron, or 'my lord'.Toyokuni3 (talk) 16:05, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

I question the use of the term 'Baltimore City.' I lived in Baltimore briefly and I have never heard the city referred to as 'Baltimore City.'Deedeebee (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 22:48, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

As the article states, it is only used sometimes, when a clear distinction from the county is desired. —Adavidb 13:19, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I live in Baltimore and have for five years and I hear the term used all the time. You'd use to distinguish between the city and the county, but in that context it's quite common. --Jfruh (talk) 14:07, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Google Earth Model

I have tried to add a Google Earth model of Baltimore City Hall but the "Wiki Police" keep reporting it as spam. Can someone instruct me on how to add this model without it being reported as spam? Should I create a new page specifically about Baltimore City Hall? Can I host the model on Wkipedia somehow so there is not a link back to my website to avoid the spam violation? It is also hosted on the 3D warehouse...should I link it from there? I cant imagine that 3D models are not wanted on Wikipedia.

Baltimore City Hall at Google 3D Warehouse —Preceding unsigned comment added by 3Doogle (talk • contribs) 22:23, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

site's been taken down. if this weren't a talk page i would have just removed this as a dead link.Toyokuni3 (talk) 03:36, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

see your talk ccwaters (talk) 15:44, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Architecture

Would be nice to update the further information link so it goes to Baltimore Architecture, rather than Baltimore Neighborhoods - - is there such a page?... (for architecture) --Teda13 (talk) 02:55, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

mention definitely needs to be made of the german influence in the residential architecture of b'more, AND mention should be made in the body of the article (not just the 'see also') of the famous(infamous?) formstone of east b'more, hamden, etc.Toyokuni3 (talk) 15:37, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Etymology of name

there is debate on the Baltimore, County Cork page as to whether it is correctly 'baile an' or 'baile na'. an is the definite article, while na is the preposition 'of'. na would seem to me more liokely correct. however, the reference cited is to place names in northern ireland , where cork very definitely is not.Toyokuni3 (talk) 15:15, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

the irish derivation of the name IS pertinent, and its deletion will be reverted every time.Toyokuni3 (talk) 23:28, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Baltimore overhaul

Hi all. I just wanted to let you guys know that I plan on starting a rather significant overhaul of the article to try and get it up to WP:GA standards. I will be taking the following actions:

1. Removing dubious uncited information and trying to find references for other facts. Anywhere a source is needed I will either add a {{fact}} tag. If you happen to find a WP:RELIABLE source for that information, please provide it! To this end, please do not be offended if I remove information from the page that you believe should be included: nothing is gone forever and can always be re-added later with a proper source.
2. Cleaning up lead to match WP:LEAD
3. Moving long sections (e.g. History) into their own dedicated sub-articles and then revising down the information left on the main page per WP:SUMMARY
4. Transform lists into prose form, and creating sub-lists for other information that is unneeded on the main page (radio and TV stations, former sports team, etc.)
5. Editing sections to match the recommendations of WP:USCITY
6. Revising prose for clarity and to match WP:MoS

Please feel free to help make changes, or provide your comments here. If you do plan on helping with the overall. I ask that you please use the Sandbox, and make edits to particular sections only in order to reduce the chances of encountering edit conflicts. Thank you for your help. Best, epicAdam (talk) 21:44, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Nicknames

Can we decide on which nicknames are actually going to remain in the infobox? Of the ones listed, I think "Charm City" is really the only one that is still in use; "Mob Town", "The City of Firsts", "Monument Town" are all rather archaic. "B-more" and "B-town" aren't really nicknames as much as they are abbreviations. As for the mottos, there is typically only one official motto designated by the local legislature. "The Greatest City in America" and "Get On It" aren't mottos as much as they are advertising slogans for tourists. There has to be a decision as to which names are actually listed in this article.

"The City that Reads" was on all the park benches for a while but I don't think it took.

"Mobtown" (usually written closed up) is a still a fairly well known nickname, usually used in a derogatory or ironic sense these days, but probably recognized by most Baltimoreans. Yes, I'm a local and am basing this on my own personal experience (i.e. it's Original Research, not a Reliable Source), but I would just urge you not to toss that one out of hand like the others you list, which I think are genuinely moribund. To provide a few examples of contemporary use, a pretty well known local blog, the Mobtown Shank, uses the name, as does the Baltimore City Paper's Mobtown Beat column. --Jfruh (talk) 03:15, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I haven't been there in a year or two but I can't imagine that "mobtown" is no longer in use.69.138.223.87 (talk) 20:18, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

I have also heard Baltimore referred to as Dixie's Tollbooth, as it was the first city below the Mason-Dixon line, and up until about the 1940s, people from the Northeast had to go through Baltimore to get to the South.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.153.115.173 (talk) 00:24, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

The popularity of the TV show "The Wire" has given Baltimore a new nickanme: "The Hole". This is a reference to the show's theme song "Way Down in The Hole", originally performed by Tom Waits. 66.83.115.178 (talk) 14:46, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

History

You removed a cite and then placed a on a sentence that is convoluted (has several ideas) but that seems neither controversial nor relevant to this article (and if true is surely resolved on the pages of the people linked). What specific item there needs sourcing? DMacks (talk) 00:04, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry about that. My internet connection went out between making that change and posting a correction, which should be up now. I do like to find references for all "hard facts" (e.g. dates, numbers, statistics) even if they may be uncontroversial, since it greatly aids readers who use Wikipedia as a research tool. I took out those particular fact tags as I am lining up sources. I'll be continuing to work on the article section by section in my personal sandbox so any changes I make will typically come in batches from now on as I find proper sources and work them into the text. Best, epicAdam (talk) 01:27, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

A squared C squared

i really don't think anne arundel community college belongs in the list. anne arundel county (other than perhaps glen burnie, brooklyn and linthicum) feels every bit as much allegiance (rightly or wrongly) with metro dc. moreover, you don't list aa county as a contiguous suburb. further, if you're going to include aacc, then why not the naval academy and mcdaniel(in carroll county, which borders on baltimore county). maybe even hood. just not part of baltimore. comments?Toyokuni3 (talk) 20:03, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

I am in agreement that AACC doesn't belong with this article. —ADavidB 06:29, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

While I agree that AACC should not be on the page - don't underestimate Anne Arundel County's allegiance to the city. You would be surprised at how connected the population along Route 2 (north of annapolis) is to Baltimore city - it's the cultural center for all of central Maryland. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.67.22.116 (talk) 20:17, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

There is currently a proposal on the table to amend the Wikipedia naming conventions for US cities to follow the AP Stylebook's suggested names. This would effectively move a number of US city articles currently on the list, so Baltimore, Maryland would be moved to Baltimore. To comment on this discussion, please go here. Dr. Cash (talk) 16:47, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Infobox update

Summary of changes:

• added flag
• added pushpin map to better illustrate Baltimore's geographic position in a wider context.
• added city council members, city delegation, and congressmen - something I saw at the Sanfrancisco page.
• added demonym.
• added named for.
• corrected incorporation year.
• corrected area per U.S. Census Density Using Land Area.
• corrected coord data: removed seconds because the were overly precise, removed geodata template redundant with coord in Infobox, and switch from city to city(pop).
• corrected population data: Metro=CBSA and Urban=MSA. Compare say San Jose and Oakland which are in the same CBSA but separate MSAs. Updated MSA and CBSA to 2007.

GcSwRhIc (talk) 18:44, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Unreferenced material

I have downgraded Baltimore's WikiProject Cities Assessment because the article contains a lot of irrelevant material and requires substantial cleanup, especially in finding citations. I will try to find references for the uncited material in this article wherever possible. However, per Wikipedia:Verifiability, I will go through and purge the article of "pseudo information" for any material I cannot verify. Additional editors' help in finding appropriate references would be much appreciated. Best, epicAdam^(talk) 18:10, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Island South of I-695 Bridge

Can someone tell me what the island in the mouth of Baltimore harbor is, just south of the I-695 bridge is? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.2.92.82 (talk) 04:06, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

The "island" you're referring to is Fort Carroll. (You can find information like that by using Google Earth and checking Wikipedia under Geographic Web in the layers section of the sidebar.) DAK4Blizzard (talk) 07:39, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Climate

Ok. I have watched the small edit war over the climate data, specifically over which source to use. I personally believe that the Weather Channel (and NOAA)'s source for downtown is ridiculous. Just think about it. This is a Mid-Atlantic city located on the Chesapeake Bay, and has an average July high/low of 91/73? That seems ridiculous compared to Washington's more realistic average of 88/70 in July; this is a difference of THREE DEGREES in BOTH the High and Low. Not so sure about the data for the winter temps, which does seem credible right now. Mathpianist93 (talk) 23:34, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

You might want to check out the archived talk page on the subject, as this is an edit war with a long and stupid history (even earning a spot on the lamest edit wars page!). To be succinct, the pros and cons of using the downtown weather station are:

• CON: Downtown weather station is in Baltimore's urban heat island, artificially boosting the numbers
• PRO: All other available weather data comes from stations that are not in Baltimore proper; Baltimore has specific boundaries, and this is an article about Baltimore, not the Greater Baltimore Area or something like that.

But I've only been a horrified/amused viewer of this edit war, not a participant, so perhaps others have something to add. I will say that I live in Baltimore City and it does get pretty hot in the summer. --Jfruh (talk) 23:56, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Ah. Wow. this edit war has been somewhat pointless. Mathpianist93 (talk) 00:46, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Demographics

Why are white americans spoken about first in the part about the population? It looks odd whites 34% blacks 64%, natives 0.1% etc...is there a logical reason for this? vap (talk) 20:53, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

This is a good point..the answer is the usual cultural bias which it would be nice if Wikipedia could rise above..I`m caucasian btw not that it should matter. 24.240.171.194 (talk) 21:30, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

Baltimore delegation to General Assembly

The article currently includes the following:

Prior to 1969, some considered Baltimore and its suburbs to be particularly underrepresented in the Maryland General Assembly, while rural areas were heavily overrepresented. Since Baker v. Carr in 1962, Baltimore and its suburbs account for a substantial majority of seats in the state legislature; this has caused some to argue that rural areas are now underrepresented. Baltimore's steady loss of population, however, has resulted in a loss of seats in the Maryland General Assembly. Since 1980, Baltimore has lost four senators from the 47-member Maryland State Senate and twelve delegates from the 141-member Maryland House of Delegates.

Besides the references to the mysterious "some," the paragraph presupposes that everyone in Maryland lives in either the rural areas or Baltimore and its suburbs. We are aware, aren't we, that the county that is now the state's most populous political subdivision is neither? 75.196.85.28 (talk) 20:43, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Picture of Mayor Rawlings-Blake

Can't we get a better picture of the mayor? Say, one that does not involve a missing button on her blouse revealing her BRA? Do not delete this. The picture up at present is disrespectful and someone has to have a better one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.59.249.85 (talk) 05:29, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

We've been waiting for two years at least since someone first mentioned this, and nobody has volunteered to give us one. Sad. DMacks (talk) 06:02, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Heroin capital of the USA ?

Look at this You Tube-clip first: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haSywRjAyBg&feature=related

Note: 60.000 junkies out of 600.000 citizens (i.e. 10%) is clearly wrong. No city on earth could have coped with that. But what they mean is probably 60.000 out of 2.7 mill. in the larger Baltimore-area. That over 2% and is still an extremely high number.

While it's always important to focus on the positive things first and foremost, one must never shy away from the truth. And the truth is that Baltimore is having a serious heroin problem. You shouldn't waste an awful lot of space writing about it. But one or two sentences in such a long article, would strangely as it sounds improve it. Help the reader to understand for example why the crime rate is constant high due to a large user population, no matter what the police do. Please don't use dramatic words like "heroin capital of the usa" either, as these things goes up and down other cities could pass Baltimore. I know that this is double standards, but the articles must always of the highest standards. While this is just a discussion page with exchangement of opinions.

Stein S., Oslo

PS. Was a little surprised that heroin wasn't mentioned in connection with The Wire either. The whole TV-series centers around this drug, and NOT crime in general. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.209.100.54 (talk) 00:36, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Baltimore/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: epicAdam^(talk) 18:50, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

This article does not yet qualify for Good Article ranking. It is well-written and reasonably complete, but there are large sections of the article that are not adequately sourced. While some information may not be particularly controversial, information citing specific facts, especially dates and numbers, should be cited. A glaring example is the Architecture subsection, which is almost completely without citations . In addition, editorial positions are presented without source, for example: "Oriole Park at Camden Yards is considered by many to be the most beautiful baseball park in Major League Baseball". Likewise, the economy section doesn't provide any data on employment figures. It should be fairly easy to find the number of people employed by industry, the city's GDP, unemployment rate, etc.

I would recommend that the government section be consolidated and made into prose. There is a lot more to be said about Baltimore politics, law enforcement and other city agencies can be included here as well as opposed to their own small headings. Likewise, since education and healthcare are now apparently Balitmore's largest industries, more should be said here. GA articles should also try to minimize lists. The sports section can also be condensed and have added citations.

The lead also need a good deal of work to ensure it adequately summarizes the article. As it currently exists, a casual reader would find out from the lead that Baltimore is a medium-sized city in Maryland that used to be an important port and industrial town but now has a shopping mall near the harbor. Certainly, there is more to Baltimore than that. The largest section in this article are the city's neighborhoods and architecture, which aren't even mentioned, nor is much of the city's extensive history, especially its importance in both the Ward of 1812 and the Civil War.

Other issues:

• There are a few references that need to be checked, at least one is dead and some of the archived links are invalid, see: Checklinks
• A few pages need to be disambiguated to point to the intended article, see: Dablinks

While this fails good article nomination right now, I recognize that User:Folklore1 has made significant improvements to the article over the last month. I encourage editors to take these comments to help improve the article further. Best, epicAdam^(talk) 18:50, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

In support of Folklore1, the depth of content in this article is amazing. EpicAdam should have let this pass GA, because it really is at that level. I'd recommend doing some of the bot-like consistency and validation checks that adam is asking for, because most GA reviewers are far more benevolent. JamaUtil (talk) 02:10, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

there are a lot of drugs in Baltimore..i was a taxi driver there for 5 years..if it possible to have 10 % of the city strung out they have it..i read an article in the city paper once said it was more like 30Lonepilgrim007 (talk) 05:15, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Proposal to change night panroama image

I propose to change the night panorama image from File:Bmore-Skyline1.jpg to File:Baltimore Inner Harbor Skyline Night Panorama.jpg --Jovian Eye _talk 12:15, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm opposed to it. The new photo's center of focus is on Rash Field which distracts the viewer as well as putting the actual skyline out of focus. The existing photo is strictly skyline and has a greater effect. IMHO. GcSwRhIc (talk) 12:28, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Independent City

I propose to remove the information about Baltimore being the "largest independent city in the United States." First off, the claim is not cited to a reliable source. Second, it's a distinction that's both meaningless and misleading, especially to those who are unfamiliar with the structure of local governments. Being the largest of a handful of cities doesn't really convey any information to the user; it's like saying that Pennsylvania is the largest commonwealth in the United States, it may be true but inconsequential. Best, epicAdam^(talk) 06:15, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Local dialect

How else are you supposed to say "to" and "do" other than "tew" and "dew"? I am from Baltimore and i don't understand why they put that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.114.136.73 (talk) 00:33, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

I've removed this to/do sentence from the article. Its claim was not supported by the accompanying cited source or the Baltimore dialect article. A guess is that the "eh" sound that prefixes an "oh" sound in the dialect was also thought to precede "oo" sounds. —ADavidB 04:22, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Structure

Hi. I'm going through all the US Cities (as per List of United States cities by population) in an effort to provide some uniformity in structure. Anyone have an issue with me restructuring this article as per Wikipedia:WikiProject Cities/US Guideline. I won't be changing any content, merely the order. Occasionally, I will also move a picture just to clean up spacing issues. I've already gone through the top 20 or so on the above list, if you'd like to see how they turned out. Thoughts? Onel5969 (talk) 16:22, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Population vs. area

@Onel5969: I have a feeling that you and I are on the same page on this issue. If I am incorrect, I hope to sway you. It's not a huge deal for me but I am a stickler when it comes to the use of the word "large"; I strongly feel that "large" should only be used to describe size, not population. It makes more sense that way. Even if it could be argued that they are interchangeable (as nearly any dictionary would contend my stance on this), I don't think that anyone could argue that it isn't preferable, for the sake of clarity, to delineate "most populous" from "largest by area". If you feel differently, I'll look forward to your response on the subject.--Paisan1 (talk) 21:02, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

For Baltimore, I cannot find any statistics of comparison by area for Maryland cities. I have a feeling, however, that it is both the largest by size AND population within the state. I leave the wording alone until hearing back from you or others on the subject. --Paisan1 (talk) 21:00, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

@Paisan1: While many folks do use large interchangeably for both area and population, I would tend to agree with you, although, like "biggest", they are both non-specific terms. I would, as you have stated above, be more specific and state "most populous" or "largest area". Having said that, if you look at other city pages, particularly those with FA status like Boston, Cleveland or Minneapolis, they all use largest instead of most populous; while others, like Houston and Washington, D.C., use the more specific "populous" terminology. I am curious, however, why you directed this question to me. Did I edit something which indicated I preferred the term, "large"? Onel5969 (talk) 21:13, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

@Onel5969: The main reason, and the ONLY reason, is because Baltimore is on my watch list. Out of sheer curiosity I decided to check this page about the population stat, and saw that you had created a subsection. That being said, your user name is coincidentally VERY familiar considering my recent ANI proposal and successful ban of a notorious user, with whom you've had dealings. But again, my only purpose was to see if Baltimore is indeed the largest city in Maryland, and I cannot find any city area comparisons for that state. CORRECTION: just figured out an easier way. Went to [List of U.S. cities by area] and simply confirmed that it is first Maryland city listed by total area.Paisan1 (talk) 08:51, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Was Baltimore's Inner Harbor the second leading port of entry for immigrants to the United States? Locust Point is not the INNER harbor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.12.166.171 (talk) 02:36, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

What about the 21st Century

Seems quaint to just go up to the 20th Century.William (The Bill) Blackstone (talk) 18:27, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

We who live here cannot let "Death of African American Freddie Gray in police custody led to the 2015 Baltimore Riots" define our city. We need more details about Freddie Gray, and more about the peaceful protesting that has gone on. We cannot let the movement be defined by outsiders. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wwaggawwagga (talk • contribs) 20:12, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

Freddie Gray Protests

Please talk about this with the detail and concern it deserves, including the fact that West Baltimore place are some of the most violent in America. http://data.baltimoresun.com/news/police-settlements/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wwaggawwagga (talk • contribs) 20:22, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

The article is about the city so on the contrary, we actually need to prevent it from becoming dominated by the Freddie Gray information WP:RECENTISM. ― Padenton|✉   20:26, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

It's a pretty significant riot. I think that 2-3 sentences, something along the lines of how the riots in Los Angeles were handled in that article would be appropriate. Onel5969 (talk) 21:09, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

Is there a specific page for West Baltimore where concerns for the area can be voiced? The city as a whole is in trouble, but West Baltimore is moreso in trouble because of the events, and 2-3 sentences don't really cover an event that is destroying an entire community. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:30A:C03D:62B0:805C:94E8:16B2:BE1B (talk) 00:47, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

No, not a specific article about West Baltimore as its own separate entity. There is a List of Baltimore neighborhoods, and several of those have their own articles. Onel5969 (talk) 01:16, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

NPOV edits

Hi. Editor Brlaw8 continues to attempt to add promotional material from cites linked directly to the city, which are highly NPOV. In doing so, the editor has violated the WP:3RR rule. Not every citation is valid, if it is from a non-neutral source, like the city's own website, or a website affiliated with the promotion of the city, than that is not a valid citation. The copy is very promotional, and is simply written to favor the city. Onel5969 (talk) 02:16, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

Hello I am user Brlaw8 I have been using/contributing to Wikipedia for years and today I wanted to report another user Onel5969 for negativism on his or her talk page and as a frequent poster on the Baltimore page I see how he/she dispute Freddie Gray as being significant in the 21st century and list a few insignificant other things of the time just to add a incomplete 21st century historic subsection. Here's a response from Wikipedia on their talk page. "The article is about the city so on the contrary, we actually need to prevent it from becoming dominated by the Freddie Gray." As this poster is someone from Arizona with no connections to the city or state their reason for posting in Baltimore could be to hurt the image of city to the millions that get their first look of Baltimore through Wikipedia not to inform. The reason this post was brought to my attention as a frequent poster in the Baltimore page is when I would edit obsolete information and update it user Onel5969 sent this Hi. Editor Brlaw8 continues to attempt to add promotional material from cites linked directly to the city, which are highly NPOV. In doing so, the editor has violated the WP:3RR rule. Not every citation is valid, if it is from a non-neutral source, like the city's own website, or a website affiliated with the promotion of the city, than that is not a valid citation. The copy is very promotional, and is simply written to favor the city. Onel5969 (talk) 02:16, 17 May 2015 (UTC). By all means I feel the very same way that their posts are very un-promotional of the city. My sources are valid and up to date and even the sources that were not from the city website like the US Berea of labor statistics were constantly deleted and I believe this user is abusing their power. I believe that the Baltimore information I posted were contradictory to 2012 vs 2015 and they became upset. For example, I used my reference from the US Berea that the cities unemployment rate was 8.1% as of March 2015 as opposed to the 11.8% from 2012 and that was deleted. Truth be told you are only going to find the most unbiased detailed information about a city's local economy through local sources, which is what I presented. I even presented non local sources as stated earlier. To me the sword cuts both ways he/she dislike the positives of Baltimore and would rather post negatives from the so called neutral un-credible websites not associated with reports done by the city or state governments on their economies. My whole goal in editing the Economy section of Baltimore was not through favoritism but to have it comparable and more detailed/up to date like other cities represented like Philadelphia, Richmond, Washington DC, Boston, and New York. You can not just have the economy section summarized as a city that went through deindustrialization has a high unemployment with a few companies. You cant have one piece and exclude the other piece and that why I wanted to bring this to your attention. As a result the entire economy section is disjointed with an unlinked link and I'm afraid to edit because it might get deleted by this user. Again every reference listed were the truth and nothing but the truth even if it is positive. I did not make it a goal to delete the whole crime section of Baltimore, and neither would I go out to list all the positives either. I actually believe your whole Freddie Gray riot stance would be appropriate in the crime section. Your response is greatly appreciated with this inquiry. — Preceding Brlaw8 02:54, 19 May 2015 (UTC) comment added by Brlaw8 (talk • contribs)

Thanks for making my point, Brlaw8 - happy editing! Onel5969 (talk) 04:41, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

Hi Brlaw8 - Just wanted to go over two issues with you. First, the easy one: the 3RR rule, you can click on the link to get the detail about it, but in a nutshell it says that you can't make 3 reverts (or edits which act like a revert) within a 24 hour period. In addition, it shouldn't be around 24 hours, in an attempt to get around that timeframe. The last time you were reverted, it was solely for this issue. Second, please take a look at WP:NPOV, your edits clearly attempt to delete information which does not make Baltimore look good, while inserting data which promotes the city. While your updating of the unemployment rate was neutral, and from a non-biased source, the rest of your edits in the Economy section cited four sources, all of which exist to promote the city of Baltimore: "http://www.godowntownbaltimore.com", "http://baltimore.citybizlist.com", "http://baltimore.org", and "http://baltimoredevelopment.com". I am once again going to excise those NPOV edits from the article. If we get a consensus on this talk page which shows that I am incorrect, I will obviously accede to that consensus. Please do not re-add without that consensus, particularly since you were in violation of the 3RR rule. Thanks. Onel5969 (talk) 21:28, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

Hello Onel5969 I don't recall being reverted or 3RR rule, however I do acknowledge more than 3 edits were made by me on this page but you can also fit the 3RR rule. Initially I deleted some edits that I thought did not fit criteria, and you reposted them when you say your edits clearly attempt to delete information which does not make Baltimore look good, while inserting data which promotes the city. After that I added what I had to add to the economy section and left the original edits intertwined with my edits that were still being deleted by you no matter if I left positive/negative edits of prior users to avoid WP:NPOV forks. Post first deletion by you I made sure all facts and significant points of view on a given subject were acknowledged in the economy section in an impartial tone. As a result I was forced to edit more than 3 times while everything I would contribute would get deleted if it was a neutral source or not. Your handling did not solve the three revert rule but it encouraged it and it did not get communicated to me via talk page prior to your filling of WP:3RR which I obviously did not know about. At this time no information prior to the edits I made were deleted they were just added on to as a compromise. I will still dispute the statistics of the city's economy. If there is a positive trend in Downtown Baltimore area or tech sector it will most likely inform those who previously did not know it before rather than make "Baltimore look good," which was not my goal even if the statistics lean that way. As I said before nothing in the economy section had much or anything at all contributed to the Baltimore economy or even acknowledged the known fact through many federal, state, local sources of Baltimore's significance to the central Maryland region and the state's economy, which is a violation of balance in NPOV prior to my editing and that balance is exactly what I contributed. Again the WP:NPOV is omnipresent in every cities economy section but this one. That is a double standard, the inspiration of using local sources to provide information on a city's local economy came from the economy sections in Philadelphia, Richmond, Washington DC, New York, Boston, and Pittsburg. I have no problem with this as the sources provided are valid, very detailed, and unbiased. A source is not biased just because its title say http://www.godowntownbaltimore.com", "http://baltimore.citybizlist.com", "http://baltimore.org", and "http://baltimoredevelopment.com or simply have the word Baltimore in its title that's prejudice. Yet these sources are criticized such as "http://baltimore.citybizlist.com" that was just a link of information referencing the CBRE Tech Talent Report a report done by the Fortune 500 and S&P 500 company headquartered in Los Angeles completely independent to the city of Baltimore. "http://baltimore.citybizlist.com", was also justified in the Forbes source below it for tech hot spots. These sources are not biased because they compare Baltimore to other cities such as job density to the top 25 largest metros, tech reports done on the 50 largest metros, comparison of business centers in the central MD region of Columbia and towson to Baltimore (which was again deleted). They don't just list Baltimore as number one out of all cities compared to it but they give the city its rightful rank and that rank is deserved not biased. These sources would be biased un-neutral(violate NPOV) only if they attempted to list Baltimore above other cities that are statistically in a better place and that is not the case in any of them. I have read the NPOV bias in sources and Biased or opinionated sources section and those qualities do not apply to any of the sources I have listed. While a source may be biased, it may be reliable in the specific context. The reliability of a source depends on context. Each source must be carefully weighed to judge whether it is reliable for the statement being made in the Wikipedia article and is an appropriate source for that content. In general, the more people engaged in checking facts, analyzing legal issues, and scrutinizing the writing, the more reliable the publication. Sources should directly support the information as it is presented in the Wikipedia article. — Preceding Brlaw8 02:54, 19 May 2015 (UTC) comment added by Brlaw8 (talk • contribs) 23:54, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

Hi. You are correct, simply because a site has a name similar to the article does not make it biased. However, these particular sites exist to promote the city. That's why I didn't revert the information which had the Forbes cite, nor your update on the unemployment figure. If there's an underlying CBRE report, cite that, and not the interpretation of that report by a biased source. And you can use non-independent sources, but not when the information is promotional in tone and content. And it still doesn't address your violation of the 3RR rule. And, you're absolutely incorrect, as I was very careful NOT to violate the 3RR rule. I suggest you be careful about making unwarranted accusations. As I said, let's wait to see if any other editors have an opinion, or can cite guidelines/policies which have a different interpretation than what I've laid out. Onel5969 (talk) 01:36, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

It seems clear to me that the full concept of WP:NPOV remains misunderstood, Brlaw8. It's not just what is stated, but also from what source and in what way. Yes, other city's Economy sections include sentences that point out their strengths. If the strengths exist, by all means include them (though try to be as open to documented weaknesses as well). At issue is where the statements were made and the neutrality of those sources. Pro-Baltimore sources are not the best for neutral statements about Baltimore. I checked the Philadelphia and Washington, D.C. Economy sections and did not find them to have the rampant NPOV issues you suggested. For example, Washington's Economy section cites The New York Times, the U.S. Bureau of Economic Analysis (USBEA), the United States Bureau of Labor Statistics, and CNN Money. Philadelphia's Economy section cites the Pew Charitable Trusts, the Globalization and World Cities Research Network, and also the USBEA. Where local sources are included, it's primarily trusted media sources such as The Washington Post and Washingtonian Magazine, and for general info such as tourism numbers that are not likely to be disputed. Where info from a Philadelphia Planning Committee commissioned study is used, that source is plainly stated (and not hidden in the citation). Even if other city's articles are in violation of Wikipedia policy, the solution is to correct them, not to continue the violation in other articles. Where possible, when listing a source that cites a much better source, try to locate that original source and cite it directly if you can verify the content. By the way, please sign your Talk contributions with four tilde characters ( ~~~~ ), as instructed in the top left of this page. —ADavidB 02:15, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Here is the citation for the CBRE report http://www.cbre.com/EN/aboutus/MediaCentre/2015/Pages/Top-Tech-Talent-Markets-2015.aspx

Both reports below are neutral sources of Baltimore's downtown employment density in a one mile radius compared to the top 25 largest metros in 2011. Can I use either of these two sources for downtown employment density in comparison to other cities in the nation in 2011?

First study below uses the Version 7 LEHD Origin-Destination Employment Statistics (LODES) data from the 2011 Longitudinal Employer-Household Dynamics (LEHD, LED for short) program, managed by the U.S. Census Bureau. In this report Baltimore primary downtown (Downtown Baltimore, MD) rank #15 in the nation for the top 25 largest metros in a one mile radius in 2011. Total jobs are in numerical order followed by downtown population which is not in numerical order. Some cities are listed twice in Secondary Employment Node including Baltimore's Johns Hopkins Hospital/Univeristy however they are not the primary downtown or commercial district.

If it does not redirect you to page#34 I suggest you start there then look at page#38 http://www.milwaukeedowntown.com/images/content/downloads/Defining_DowntownReport.pdf#page=34

In this report for Baltimore employment in the city center compared to the top 25 largest metros Baltimore is ranked #15 for the same year 2011 If it does not redirect you to the page I suggest start at page#12 http://cityobservatory.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Surging-City-Center-Jobs.pdf#page=12 Brlaw8 (talk) 21:45, 22 May 2015 (UTC) 01:50, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

It appears the above was copied from some other correspondence. I briefly reviewed the CBRE source which seems to be impartial and reliable. The IDA report from the Milwaukee web site also looks to be a good source, though I don't know the IDA's reputation. The same applies for City Observatory.

When I wrote about signing your posts with '~~~~, I meant when first writing them. If going back and signing afterward, be sure to replace in full any signature added for you by another account (though you may want to keep the former timestamp). —ADavidB 08:57, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Moderated Discussion

Moderated discussion of issues with this article is being started at the dispute resolution noticeboard. Any editor here is welcome to participate, either to add comments or to become a party to the discussion. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:04, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

ground rents and rowhouses

The ground rent and the rowhouse are very much linked in Baltimore City. It made homeownership much more affordable: The buyer paid for the structure only, then a small sum annually for the use of the land. I don't have formal sources, though you can still see ads asking to buy up ground rents in the back pages of the local newspaper. I think it should be included as part of the city's history, and, though not unique, certainly unusual. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.183.2.208 (talk) 07:03, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Towson University

This has been discussed before in the talk page...Towson is not it Baltimore it is in Baltimore County..someone please remove it from the article..on a side note somewhere in the article it should say that the county line had been North Avenue historically...it may be there but I haven`t read it yet...it was changed after the Civil War I believe to where it is now which is basically Walker Avenue and York Road. 75.139.90.1 (talk) 06:12, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

Valdimor

Was Baltimore ever known as Valdimor? I came across this image which noted Valdimor as the site of the 1831 Anti-Masonic Party convention. For the record, it was [[8]] in Baltimore. A quick Google search revealed no other references. --Ratha K (talk) 23:26, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

To whoever left the comment above: The only references I can find on google to Valdimor were related to that picture. Sometimes it's in quotes which makes me think it was a nickname, maybe something Mason/anti-Mason related, or a person's nickname. I'd be interested to know if anyone else has more information. PermStrump(talk) 18:02, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, forgot to sign my original comment above. Fyi, it is apparently a meme made by pro-Masonic political protesters (second paragraph). --Ratha K (talk) 23:26, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Recent changes

I just made a lot of changes in the neighborhood section because it sounded like a tourism ad with some racism mixed in, the vast majority unsourced. I'm happy to answer specific questions if anyone has them PermStrump(talk) 09:11, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

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Lead Poisoning

This might be useful for anyone that is interested in Baltimore & working on its Wiki page, in this case in regards to the pollution section & high levels of lead poisoning in certain areas. JanderVK (talk)

http://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-lead-testing/

Baltimore Health

It would be useful to include statistics regarding health in Baltimore, for instance, life expectancy, infant mortality, rates of disease for CVD and diabetes, percent of individuals covered by health insurance, etc. This information would prove valuable for those using Wiki to learn about the wellbeing of Baltimore. Resources are available through the Baltimore City Health Department at Baltimorecity.gov.

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