Talk:O'Brien Trophy (ice hockey)

O'Brien Trophy (ice hockey) is a featured list, which means it has been identified as one of the best lists produced by the Wikipedia community. If you can update or improve it, please do so.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
October 12, 2007	Featured list candidate	Promoted
November 19, 2007	Featured topic candidate	Promoted
February 28, 2009	Featured topic removal candidate	Kept
November 23, 2016	Featured topic removal candidate	Demoted
Current status: Featured list

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus to support move. JPG-GR (talk) 19:06, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

O'Brien Trophy → O'Brien Cup — 1. Name as illustrated on trophy. Indicating that it was named O'Brien Cup through its life. 2. Current title of article can be confused with other O'Brien Trophy 3. If O'Brien Trophy is more common name, that is likely only because the trophy has been defunct for decades. — Alaney2k (talk) 00:13, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(From WT:HOCKEY): When I took the photo of the O'Brien Trophy at the Hockey Hall of Fame, I noticed in big letters across the top, "The O'Brien Cup". This was probably the name it was known by, and its official name when donated. For that reason, I think we should rename the article to match what is clearly labelled on the the trophy itself. I don't think that the trophy is commonly known, and it would be likely impossible to determine the most commonly known name of the Trophy, especially during its usage lifetime, since it is has been defunct for many years. Changing it to Cup would be consistent with labelling things as they were known at the time, and especially with what is labelled on the item itself. As a final reason, it would mean it would not be confused with the Larry O'Brien Trophy also. Since it is an FL, that means some further steps would be done also. Does this seem incorrect to you folks?

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

Oppose Every source I've found, including the HHOF website refers to it as the O'Brien Trophy. It is possible that it was known as the O'Brien Cup for a period, but it is now more commonly called the O'Brien Trophy. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 02:38, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as the common name. As Scorpion points out, every reliable hockey source, including the HHOF and the NHL, refer to it as the O'Brien Trophy. As far the NBA championship trophy is concerned, it commonly has "Larry" prefixed onto it's name anyway. NeoChaosX (talk, edits) 03:49, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Comment Look harder. The book "Trail of the Stanley Cup" by Charles Coleman, on page 189, in describing the Wanderers win in the first year of the NHA:

The Wanderers as champions of the N.H.A took over the Stanley Cup from Ottawa. They were also presented with the O'Brien Cup, a new trophy donated by M. J. O'Brien to be emblematic of the N.H.A. championship.

As Trail was written based on the newspaper reports of the time, that seems to be the correct name of the trophy. The trophy is long defunct and its proper name seems to have been forgotten. The HHOF isn't perfect, if you go to their Stanley Cup display, they list Frank McGee as being born in 1892, which would make him 13 years old when he scored 14 goals against Dawson city in 1905. Coleman is considered reliable. Alaney2k (talk) 04:49, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at the image, it appears that only the actual cup portion is labelled "O'Brien Cup". Maybe that was known as the cup, but at some point it was converted into a trophy, so then it started being called the O'Brien Trophy. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 13:44, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In Trail, there is a picture of the 1910 Wanderers with the trophy. It has the huge base. (Frankly the trophy has a lot of artistic details which you notice when you look at it closely, which makes it somewhat unique) Which reminds me, the trophy is supposed to be made of Cobalt silver (from O'Brien's mine) and is supposed to be very heavy. I wonder where we can find out about that? Alaney2k (talk) 14:30, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In a Time Magazine article from 1927, available on the web here, it states the O'Brien Cup. Alaney2k (talk) 18:25, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Location

It's implied above that the trophy/cup is displayed at the Hockey Hall of Fame, but neither this article nor the Hall of Fame article actually says this. Probably they both should, assuming it's true. Andrewa (talk) 16:05, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It was on display when I went to the Hall. In the community trophies section, early hockey. If they stop displaying it, do we modify the article to say that, too? Alaney2k (talk) 14:26, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Probably we should just have the info as to where it's normally kept/displayed/whatever in the article on the trophy itself, and link to that article from any articles on the venue(s) themselves. But the information belongs somewhere, if the trophy is notable enough for an article, which it clearly appears to be. Andrewa (talk) 23:17, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

1909 awarding

The addition of 1909 awarding is not reliable. One web site, not the Hockey Hall of Fame, or some reliable source like that. Until there is a reliable source that can show it is the same trophy and that it was awarded, it should not be included. Alaney2k (talk) 17:47, 11 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

O'Brien was awarded in 1924 through 1927

If you look at the team pictures for the Maroons in 1926 and the Senators in 1927, you'll see that the O'Brien Cup is in the picture.

Here is the Maroons: link (It's in the bottom right, Prince of Wales in the bottom left)

Here is the Senators: link The O'Brien is centre-right.

I think this is clear evidence that the O'Brien was still awarded until 1927 to the NHL champion.

The question is: how do we list this? Alaney2k (talk) 19:49, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

We need to know what it was awarded for, however. For all we know, the previous champion simply passed it to the next champion along with the POW Trophy. It may not have been officially presented by the league. Reso lute ^{Lest We Forget} 20:17, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to see if there is anything in the Globe online archives which I can get at through my library. I think it was given, but somehow through time it's been forgotten. Like the O'Brien Cup name. At the least, we should have a note about it soon. I just want to avoid the idea that this is original research. I think the real problem is that we are relying too much on one source, the HHOF web site, which has lots of errors. Alaney2k (talk) 21:04, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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Move discussion in progress

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