Talk:The Pale

Old discussion

The term the pale also appears to be used to describe British territories in Ireland... and what about the phrase "beyond the pale"? The Anome 11:12 23 May 2003 (UTC)

An article already exists for this as Pale. Mintguy 11:20 23 May 2003 (UTC)

Should this article be merged with Pale, then? Rmhermen 13:03 23 May 2003 (UTC)

(The former Pale has been moved here, instead.)--Srleffler 03:47, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

atrocious article

the main point of this article should be that this was the origin of the phrase 'beyond the pale' however it doesnte even get a mention, why?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.96.14.189 (talk) 17:19, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

There's no etymological evidence for this. The Oxford English Dictionary specifically says "The theory that the origin of the phrase relates to any of several specific regions, such as the area of Ireland formerly called the Pale (see sense 4b) or the Pale of Settlement in Russia (see sense 4c), is not supported by the early historical evidence and is likely to be a later rationalization." --ABehrens (talk) 16:27, 28 June 2019 (UTC)

The remarks regarding the English spoken in the Pale compared to the Cork accent are frankly grounded in little historical facts.Irish probably was spoken in parts of the Pale in the 19th century as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Diarmuidh (talk • contribs) 13:21, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Irish was very widely spoken in the Pale well into the 19th century. See John O'Donovan's Ordnance Survey Letters for Meath, for instance, where O'Donovan went around the county talking to the natives in Irish and asking them the names for all the places and the origins. It is specifically from these interviews in the 1830s that An Uaimh is the established name for Navan in the Irish (there was a bit of conflict between versions until that). Also, Meath County Council did a commemorative book on An Gorta Mór 10 years ago and it went in depth into how the famine did much more damage to the Irish speaking north of County Meath than to the more English speaking south of the county. Furthermore, the last native Irish speaker in Iniskeen, on the borders of Co. Meath but in Monaghan, only died in the 1950s. His name was Dónall Ó Con Fhiacla (given in some sources as 'Dónall Mac Con Fhiacla', and pre standardisation as 'Mac Confhiacla'). Lastly, Irish was spoken in north Louth well into the 20th century, where it was in reality Ulster Irish. PS: Read Colm Lennon's book on Richard Stanihurst for the latter's description of English spoken in the Pale in the 16th century. It was an archaic form which Stanihurst was very proud of, believing as he did that the English spoke a less English language than people like himself. 86.42.77.166 (talk) 19:16, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Page moved from Pale

See Talk:Pale. Andrewa 02:47, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I have archived the old talk page for this article at Talk:The Pale/Archive 1.--Srleffler 03:45, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Suggested changes

The article needs more information on dates, in particular when the Pale was established, how long it lasted, and what happened to end it.--Srleffler 20:59, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

It could also use some information on modern use of "The Pale" to refer to the area around Dublin. I gather that this term is still used, colloquially.--Srleffler 22:03, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Ireland Centric

I really think this article should be moved to the Dublin pale or something similar.

Though the Irish pale was the most famous one as the disambig page mentions it wasn't the only one. The Calais Pale was also fairly significant and is deserving of a article.--Him and a dog 16:56, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Blatant self-contradiction

"The remaining Lordship that gave direct allegiance to the English king shrank accordingly, and as parts of its perimeter in counties Meath and Kildare were fenced or ditched, it became known as the Pale, deriving from the Latin word "pallium", a fence."

Then in the next section:

"The word pale derives ultimately from the Latin word palus, meaning stake."

Someone should clear this up.137.141.156.60 (talk) 21:05, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm no expert but I would suggest there is no contradiction - the latin word "pallium" most likely dervies from the latin word "palus". So the root is essentially the same. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.43.12.100 (talk) 12:08, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Blasket Islands

According to the map on this page, the Blasket Islands off Dingle were part of the Pale. Is this true? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.88.170.40 (talk) 20:41, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Beyond the pale

Honest to god I thought the expression derived from pale meaning "dead" e.g. "Behold a pale rider", or, "I saw a cowboy wrapped in white linen". Thus "beyond the pale" would mean "beyond being dead" (meaning: way, way beyond the possible). Or "outside the reasonable or the expected" (way outside). Anyway thanks for the in-depth research. This is well beyond a start article; I'm bumping it up to a B. Bill Wvbailey (talk) 02:57, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

Literal translation for An Ghalltacht

I feel like literal translations for the Irish names for The Pale would be useful in the lead. My limited knowledge of Scottish Gaelic leads me to believe that An Ghalltacht translates to something like "land/region of the foreigners", but I'm hesitant to add the translation without confirmation from either someone who is knowledgeable about the history or who speaks Irish. Certainly it seems akin to the Scottish Gaelic a’ Ghalltachd, which means the Scottish Lowlands (i.e. the English/Scots-speaking part of Scotland) and which ultimately means "land of the foreigners". Can anyone confirm this? Alphathon /'æɫ.fə.θɒn/ ^(talk) 03:16, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

The Pale of What?

Hi, the map says "The Pale of", but nothing follows. Also, the black boundary line is missing between the two devisions at the bottom of the map. Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 11:23, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

When the term was established

This tertiary material [1] suggests that the term "the Pale" was not introduced until 1488, but our article only mentioned that date in an image caption. This probably needs looking into.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  17:56, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

This better source [2] also says that "the Pale" as such was not established until the 15th century.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  18:19, 13 October 2023 (UTC)