Talk:Gormenghast (series)

Propose Deletion

In view of the fact that these articles are in the grip of the "Fantasy Task Force", I suppose it is useless to point out that the Gormenghast series are not "Fantasy Novels". At the time of their writing, they were universally described as part of the "Gothick" genre, and subsequent more mature reflection would categorise them as essentially Surrealist. According to the article, Harold Bloom (who he?) says that the books are "more accomplished" than Lord of the Rings. But this is an "apples and oranges" comparison; Lord of the Rings is a children's book, whereas Gormenghast is thoroughly adult. The articles appear to be the Original Research of a clique of people with a very restricted Point of View. It's hard to see why it isn't plastered with demands for references, as is the case with many much less contentious Wikipedia articles. The articles are almost totally lacking in references to serious sources that would independently confirm the conclusions drawn. The few outside references in this particular article are to works produced by "Fantasy" enthusiasts and Fantasists. Other references are entirely to the books themselves, and they, of course, make no reference to "fantasy". The preamble of this article actually says "the first two installments do not contain any overtly fantastical elements"! But it goes on to say "Gormenghast is almost unanimously categorized as fantasy". By whom? And who counted them? When? And how? In order to confirm this, please supply a complete list of all those who have ever categorised Gormenghast! I propose that these articles be withdrawn, until they can be replaced by well-referenced, objective articles free from the restricted viewpoint which is absolutely forbidden by the rules of Wikipedia. It's also rather concerning that there could be such a thing as a "Fantasy Task Force". Is the article on Evolution "supported" by the "Creationist Task Force"? The situation would be similar. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.162.19.182 (talk) 09:02, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

I second every and all of these comments. After researching among several libraries and librarian scholars, they were flabbergasted as it were, by this article.

Arcsoda (talk) 15:21, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

I agree that the series is not fantasy; either gothic or surreal would be more accurate. I also agree with some of your other comments about original research and narrow point of view; also the shortage of references. However, I don't agree with the proposal to delete the whole article and start again from scratch. Incremental edits would be a more appropriate approach IMHO. --Roly (talk) 16:19, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

" A fourth book, written by Peake's widow, was published in 2009."

There doesn't seem to be any more information about this on the page. Has anyone read this book? Can anyone add any more information? 116.90.80.201 (talk) 03:57, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Untitled

Can we not say a little more about it than that?

Cleanup tag

I have added a cleanup tag specifically in reference to the character list; is it really necessary to tell us that Swelter attempts murder, or that Titus finally flees the castle? This isn't and shouldn't be part of character description! --^pirate 17:49, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

A little analysis

I can't post this in the article because Wikipedia has a policy that does not allow original research. However I thought some of you might appreciate to read this. It's a short analysis of Gormenghast through the theory of Robert Merton:

According to the theory of American sociologist Robert K. Merton, anomie is a discontinuity between cultural goals and the legitimate means available for reaching them. Applied to the behavior of the characters of Gormenghast, this would mean that most of its denizens fall under the category of conformity (for example Gertrude Groan or Sourdust). Ritualism, and later even retreatism, is most evident in the character of Sepulchrave, who mindlessly performs his daily rituals until it drives him mad. Steerpike on the other hand is a prime example of the innovator, attaining societal goals by unacceptable means. Finally, Titus Groan rejects both societal goals and means and substitutes other goals and means.

--Steerpike 14:53, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Well. My own original research: It seems no one has (ever?) mentioned that the novel is largely about upper-class stagnation in England, which is attacked through parody, satire and outright farce. Steerpike is from the lower class, has ambition and thinks independently. The existing system is too hidebound to understand and realize his monstrous criminality, so it is up to a few people, acting individually, to bring him down. Titus, born at the top of the upper class, wants to understand the lower class. Someday when I have all the novels in hand again, I may write more on the subject. Wastrel Way (talk) 18:34, 2 February 2020 (UTC) Eric

let's not call this a trilogy

Not a trilogy, not a trilogy, not a trilogy:

• the series was never envisaged as a trilogy. This is stated multiple times, in dozens of correspondences, in essays, in critical interpretations, and even in the text of Titus Awakes.

• There are more than three works.

• 'Trilogy' connotes a similarity to fantasy novels ala Tolkien, a similarity which hardly applies.

• 'Series' describes the body of work clearly, while 'trilogy' muddles the situation.

--Firsfron 01:41, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

There are three published and coherent works which each link together to form a continuous story, and thus it is a trilogy. The Oxford definition of Trilogy is A group of three dramatic or literary works related in subject or theme. Can you really argue that the Gormenghast collection as it is published (and yes, although Peake planned more, since he published but three coherent pages they cannot be included) is not A group of three dramatic or literary works related in subject or theme? --^pirate 17:55, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

If you were to use the OED's sweeping generalizations, then yes it is a trilogy. If you were looking to follow the creator's intent, the story should be called "The Titus Books," and would be referred to as an unfortunately unfinished series. There are enough scholarly papers discussing how the Titus books are structured. You are all big boys and girls, grab the one volume trade by Overlook: ISBN# 0879516283, and read the critical essays. The actual debate about what the series should be called could be expanded into part of the article. Tolkien's books can also purchased in a six volume set, three volume set, and a single book... they shouldn't be called a trilogy. That unfairly excludes The Hobbit. Similarly this would exclude the short writings Peake crafted before the primary texts, and the unfinished fourth novel. It is one story, intended to follow from birth to death the life of Titus Groan. Just avoid the T-word.

steampunk

Why categorise Gormenghast as steampunk? It's nothing of the sort, even though it inspired novels that are, in fact, steampunk (like Perdido Street Station). Could you please explain the rationale? --Goblin 23:25, Aug 31, 2004 (UTC)

I can see the steampunk elements - though only if you take Titus Alone into account, which I don't usually like to (I'm a two-book man). sheridan 23:31, 2004 Nov 28 (UTC)

The books, however, predate the start of the steampunk sub-genre as delineated by K. W. Jeter, Tim Powers, James Blaylock, etc. Titus Alone could be considered proto-steampunk, I guess, but not steampunk per se. --Goblin 23:13, Nov 29, 2004 (UTC)

I don't see that as being relevant. The Castle of Otranto was written before the Gothic novel as a genre existed, but that doesn't stop it being a Gothic novel itself. sheridan 06:52, 2004 Dec 1 (UTC)

steerpike

On a separate note - I see that Steerpike has just been identified as albino. I get the impression he is pale, but I don't recall any references to albinism. Can anyone clarify this, as I don't really want to plough through 1,000 pages to find the answer. sheridan 23:31, 2004 Nov 28 (UTC)

I thought that strange too, I don't recall any explicit reference to albinism in Steerpike either. But I could have missed it or simply forgotten, it's been a while since I read the books. --Goblin 23:05, Nov 29, 2004 (UTC)

In two minds whether to remove the albino reference until I next read the books, or leave it in, until I next read the books. sheridan 06:52, 2004 Dec 1 (UTC)

I'm re-reading the series now, and I notice that there are repeated references to Steerpike's eyes being dark red. That could well lead someone to the interpretation that he's an albino, but I also recall the initial description of him as having sandy hair, which implies that he isn't. Given the lack of a clear mention in the book itself, its probably best it remains out of the description. - HJC

Good to see I'm not the only one who noticed. Reading the books I've always envisioned Steerpike as "albino". Of course Gormenghast has its fair share of fantastical elements (Titus' violet eyes, the castle, the flood, the tree,...) but in a way none of them are so outrageous as to be impossible. And it is very well possible that Steerpike was meant to be albino, even when not outright stated (perhaps Peake felt an explicit reference was too blunt?). Pale skin, red eyes, sandy hair (HJC albino people have white to "yellowish" light hair),... I don't know if it's worth mentioning on the page though. It's all speculation anyway. --Steerpike Sep 22, 2005

I'm not sure how fantastical violet eyes are...as for Steerpike, human albinos don't have red eyes. They have light blue-looking eyes. Albino animals have red eyes. That would be cool as hell if Steerpike was meant to be albino, but the eye thing isn't quite right. I always just interpretted the dark red as brown. I wonder...

Me too...I think Peake says somewhere that they're so light brown they're red or something, so that's what I got too.

Yup, not albino. Dark red eyes (that I always imagined sparkling like pigeon blood-red rubies in firelight), olive skin and sandy hair. Filmmaker2011 (talk) 17:35, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

format

I don't like the format of this page - the 'menu' is too far down the page, and there's too much background text before that. I don't think it should be split into separate pages, but I think it should be re-arranged a little, say 'introduction', menu, background, the castle, inhabitants.sheridan 08:08, 2004 Dec 1 (UTC)

Yes, the article looks awful, especially due to all the red links, altho the formatting is terrible also. Please do all you can, I'm going to list it on WP:CU. [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 12:52, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It's not small

|Its features include a library, a large kitchen, walls, an art gallery (specifically carvings), a dining hall, a lake and a school.|

This, to me, makes the castle seem kind of small - implying that there is not much else of importance in the castle... But I can't think how to rewrite it.

BTW, feel free to edit my 'genre' section - it's probably not accurate, and needs to be more NPOV, but I thought it was a relevant point for the article --Uberisaac 10:38, July 11, 2005 (UTC)

Titus Alone & Gormenghast Castle

Ok, to clear this up, right at the end, Titus does find the castle (though does not see it):

Gormenghast, his home. He could feel it. He could almost see it. He had only to skirt the base of the great rock or climb its crusty crown, for his eyes to become filled with towers. There was a taste in the air of iron. There was a quickening it seemed of the very stones and of the bridgeless spaces. What was he waiting for?

-Sam Pointon 11:49, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Castle

"In the second book a flood drowns the lowest levels of the castle and turns the upper regions into stone islands, yet still there is accomodation for the regular inhabitants and an influx of refugees, with very substantial areas still empty."

This is a spoiler, so I don't think we should leave it in the castle description. 72.48.33.21 01:25, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, but instead let's mark it as a spoiler.Ziggurat 01:30, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Earth?

The article states that it is never made clever whether Gormenghast is located on Earth, or in some other world. In my opinion, it's clear that The Earth is the place! There are not many geographical references, althoughKavring (talk) 20:39, 19 April 2010 (UTC) the existence of poles as well as "tropics" are mentioned (this not necesserily ruling out other planets), and there are familiar other planets and objects(i.e. Saturn and the North Star) in the sky. The existence of well known animals and plants are possible in a fictionary fantasy world, but these books are not really fantasy, so I think that the familiar nature indicates that we are on Earth. But the most important things are the cultural references. The Headmasters gown has an image of the Zodiac on it, with specified signs (like "Taurus"). In "Gormenghast", there is a reference to Lethe, the river towards Hades' kingdom of the dead in Greek mythology. There are even references to Christianity, in the fact that the ceremony for the infant Titus is called "the christening", and the description of some uniformed servants looking like "christmas crackers".Kavring (talk) 15:02, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Titus Alone: neglected?

The article claims to be about the series; but actually focusses almost exclusively on Titus Groan and Gormenghast. In the characters section, no mention is made of any characters introduced in Titus Alone. In the setting section, only the last few words refer to the fact that the entire third book is set outside the castle. The themes section sticks to the first two books.

I understand why this is - the third book is very different to the other two, save for the unifying link of Titus. However surely to be an article (as this page claims) on the series of Gormenghast, some more reference and acknowledgement to Titus Alone throughout is needed? Otherwise should the article and its title be somehow refocussed to reflect the fact that it really only deals with two of the three books in depth?

I haven't even finished the book yet, so I am in no position to make any changes myself yet, but wanted to raise the issue at least!

Smeddlesboy (talk) 20:39, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Sources

Are there references that could be cited for the statements in the lead section that "The series is regarded as the first fantasy of manners. The series draws heavily on Gothic and Regency literature."?

Thanks, CBHA (talk) 18:38, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Influences

No information on an album called From the Mountain, From the Stream can be found, nor can be determined which of the many bands called Barons is being referred to here. No sources. Self-promotion? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.170.91.6 (talk) 08:45, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

Defining Genre

I'm not convinced that 2 books of reference claiming the works as fantasy is an unbiased proof of it being so. Modern British critics (and they are the works of an Englishman living in England at the time) draw far more parallels with Kafka, Brecht and Dickens. I don't think bringing up Kafka's usage of what is now termed 'Brechtian Alienation' & the very Dickensian characterization is proof (since only 1 man knows and he's dead) but it's certainly closer to the truth. The life of the author has proved a fertile area given that the largest castle in the world was just 14 miles from where he grew up. I don't see any aspects of magical realism and nothing to suggest the soubriquet fantasy compared to plain fiction.

I'm probably being vastly unfair but nobody is claiming Shakespeare wrote fantasy. A Midsummer Night's Dream is quite fantastical but it wouldn't qualify as a work of fantasy but rather than a work of magical realism. Nothing in the books suggests that such a thing would be impossible but it would be unlikely - from Brendan Behan's 'The Quare Fellow' to Harold Pinter's 'The Homecoming', similar works do have a foundation dating back to Geoffrey Chaucer's 'The Canterbury Tales'.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.99.74.135 (talk) 21:19, 21 December 2018 (UTC) 

"Series" or Trilogy?

Virtually everywhere I've seen reference to these works -- except Wikipedia -- refers to them collectively as "The Ghormenghast Trilogy". Given that fact, it seems rater irrelevant that Peake may or may not at one time conceived of an on-going series. He completed three interrelated books; the work stands now as a trilogy, and the article title ought to reflect that, to sync with other sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.89.176.249 (talk) 02:44, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

The word trilogy refers to the original three books. However, there has been a fourth book published, albeit posthumously, and this article includes information about all four, so trilogy is incorrect. --Roly (talk) 07:33, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

"Tetrology", then. "Series" implies something on-going, which the Ghormenghast books neither are, nor were intended to be.

Foster Sister?

"The Thing: The daughter of Keda, foster sister of Titus..."

I don't recall anything in the text that refers to the Thing as Titus's "foster sister", and as she was not reared by Titus's parents, that designation seems erroneous. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.89.176.249 (talk) 01:33, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

The Thing's mother was Titus's wet nurse, not strictly a foster mother, so Foster sister is technically incorrect, but near enough. I can't think of a better designation. --Roly (talk) 08:56, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

Issue with the "Accolades" section

It claims Gormenghast won the "1950 Royal Society of Literature Ondaatje Prize," but the page for the prize itself says that it was first awarded in 2004 and gives a complete list of winners, ending there. I'm inclined to believe that page over this, as Sir Christopher Ondaatje was BORN in 1933, and probably was not in a position to have a national literary prize named after him when he was 17 years old. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:4C0:4002:4560:78D8:F040:DEEF:B310 (talk) 05:04, 20 April 2022 (UTC)