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Kiełbasa

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Uhhh. Ooops? I moved Kielbasa to Kiełbasa - which is the correct spelling (ł is nothing like 'l' in Polish). However Wikipdia seems to mangle it in the Article title now. --kjd 12:44, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, up until a couple days ago Wikipedia couldn't handle characters outside of Latin-1 in titles. Nevertheless, as an English word borrowed from Polish, it's spelled kielbasa since ł isn't a letter of English, so it should stay at Kielbasa. --Angr/tɔk tə mi 29 June 2005 09:19 (UTC)

Pork

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Sorry, ladz, but kielbasa is never made of only pork. It is impossible, to make good kielbasa without beef.

Regarding the above statement: it is absolutely not true. Most of kiełbasas are made only from pork meat - of course with various spices. 99% of kiełbasas are also made with "industrial" ingredients like starch, soy protein, preservatives and so on. It's very hard to find a meat+spices-only kiełbasa, often it's possible only in homemade ones (though hardly anyone makes them at home, especially in the cities). Most good kiełbasas have 80-95% meat (containing some percent of fat). The cheap ones, used for grilling have ~30-50% of meat (rest being all kinds of fillers: water, starch, soy protein, gelatin etc.). However, you can find also some that shouldn't be named kiełbasa at all, having 20-30% of meat, and the rest being all sort of stuffing like Mechanically separated meat fat, skins, joints and so on.

Back on the topic, historically kiełbasa made from veel was also made (of course more expensive), but currently in sale are kiełbasas "with veel", meaning 1-5% of veel, the rest still being pork.

Also if you will search long enough, you can find kiełbasa made exclusively with horse meat. However, in most stores if you ever encounter horse meat, it will be mostly in the form of horse kabanosy (kabanosy końskie). Currently (2016) in 99% of shops you will not find any horse meat.

Regarding beef kiełbasas - they are in sale, but the typical meat shop (sklep mięsny) you will find 30 types of pork kiełbasa and 0 or 1 type of beef kiełbasa. The mix of pork, beef and chicken meats (or should I say: meat-like ingredients) is often available only in the cheapest kiełbasas (these with 20-30% "meat" content).

Just for the record: - good kiełbasa (with meat) (25-40 PLN/kg, ~10-15 USD/kg):

[1] [2]

- grill-like kiełbasa (30-50% meat) (8-15 PLN/kg, 3-6 USD/kg): [3]

- something you shouldn't eat, but can get in hospital catering (<30% meat) (notice the air bubbles) (6-8 PLN/kg, <2 USD/kg): [4]

That being said, I have to admit that after being in various western-europe countries (Italy, Greece, France), as well as Canada, almost everything being sold in shops with the name "Kielbasa", "Kolbasa" etc. doesn't even remotely taste like real kiełbasa, which you can buy in Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Belarus, Ukraine etc. The main difference is that in western countries "kolbasa" has only a little bit of real meat, is filled with water and fillers and often it is sold uncooked (most real kiełbasas are smoked (wędzona), often also boiled (parzona, which for example isn't the case with many kobasica in Serbia, kolbasz in Hungary or Chorrizo in Italy) and most importantly, dried (more dried = more expensive, but it ensures that it isn't a hotdog, which wouldn't look still like food after drying). In fact, these western kiełbasa-like products are most closely comparable to the worst industrial kiełbasa (<30% meat).

Hope this will help anyone that will get here to not make any assumptions about real kiełbasa just based on their local product labeled "polish kielbasa" :) Come to Poland and check out the real thing! 207.253.66.187 (talk) 20:02, 23 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Kolbasa

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Should not this be moved to Kolbasa. Let's see what other guys think, and then move it. --Ghirlandajo 11:41, 24 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

No,Kielbasa isn't named Kolbasa in Poland. --Molobo 11:56, 24 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

But it is in Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus. --Ghirlandajo 12:03, 24 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
But in America it's called Kielbasa (or sometimes even Kyelbasa), and that's why this article is here and not at Kiełbasa, which would be the Polish name for it. Halibutt 12:07, 24 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
They are probably many versions of the name, remember that wiki is not a dictionary.If you want make a article about Ukrainian cuisine, Belarusian cuisine and Russian cuisine-I am sure all these three diverse nations all have interesting food that would be worthy of contribution in seperate articles on each nations food traditions.-Molobo 12:12, 24 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
OK, let it be kielbasa. --Ghirlandajo 12:13, 24 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Molobo here, though in my honest oppinion the Ukrainian kovbasa is not the best thing in the world and the best they have there is called... Krakivska, after the city of Krakow. Halibutt 15:14, 24 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

There are other good Kovbasa varieties, not just Krakiv'ska. But the dispute is rather funny, indeed. --Irpen 19:43, 24 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Oh come on, it's the most serious dispute we've been involved so far... err... sorry for the OT. Halibutt 02:46, 25 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Actually I believe the dispute over Santa Claus was even more serious ;) --Molobo 13:47, 25 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The historical precedent for this dispute would be the ever-going and never-ending dispute on supperiority of Christmas over Easter, or the other way around. Halibutt

I've got no problem with you mentioning Mundre, but please realise that that region of Canada is heavily Ukrainian, not Polish. I think this article and Kovbasa should be merged, with seperate articles for national varities. My precedent for this it that perogies / pyrohy / varenyky are covered by the same article. But if you want to keep this one strictly Polish, Mundre doesn't belong. Kevlar67 17:08, 15 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure. However, we should also mention the variety of region type of Polish sausages (one common one not mentioned was podwawelska), and a serious mention should be made on the Sausage page since Polish sausages are world renowned, whereas French less so (and yet are mentioned). --24.91.40.69 04:42, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Klobasa /= Kielbasa

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Who set Klobasa to redirect here? This needs to be changed.

advertising

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The links to polana.com redirects to an internet shop. The sentence "Kielbasa Starowiejska" known as "Country Style Sausage " is not really true.

Merge

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Kovbasa got deleted, so I tried to merge in the content to here. I hope I didn't ruffle too many feathers. Kevlar67 05:14, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

oh, here's an article about the Canadian spelling University of Ottawa. Kevlar67 05:17, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I would merge Kovbasa to Sausage rather than to here. Kovbasa is a specific kind of sausage not of kielbasa. --Irpen 05:20, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Take it up with the guys that deleted Kovbasa. They are similar recipies though, aren't they? Kevlar67 05:33, 2 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Czech for kielbasa is not klobás, but klobása. I'm Czech, so I ought to know. (Misha) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.102.37.42 (talk) 16:05, 27 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Merge Proposal (Kolbász into Kielbasa)

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Hungarian kolbász seems to be only a regional variant of keilbasa. we don't have separate articles for Slovak or Czech klobása, so why do we need a separate article for the Hungarian variant. Kielbasa is an English word. Kolbász is not. So, I propose that Kolbász be merged into Kielbasa.   — Chris Capoccia T⁄C 07:48, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Hungarian sausages

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Kolbasz is not a Hungarian variant of Kielbasa or only a regional variant of Kielbasa. Kielbasa is an English word (? more Polish, i gues) but that does not mean that this is the word wich should be used för the Hungarian sausages (like the word "wurst" in German). Those are called Gyulai kolbász, Csabai kolbász, Debreceni kolbász and so on. Kolbasz is quite simply the word for sausage in Hungarian language and the article contains informatiomn about Hungarian sausages. Kielbasa in Hungarian is is called Kabanos. You may change the title to Hungarian sausages if you want. But there are articles on other countrys sausages too. There are articles on American sausages Australian sausages Austrian sausages Basque sausages British sausages Bulgarian sausages Chilean sausages Chinese sausages Croatian sausages Cuban sausages Dutch sausages English sausages Filipino sausages Finnish sausages French sausages German sausages Italian sausages Portuguese sausages Puerto Rican sausages Scottish sausages South African sausages Spanish sausages Swedish sausages Swiss sausages Taiwanese sausages and Vietnamese sausages. Those sausages usually are mentioned by their countrys original names on the variety of the sausages they have. like Biroldo, Chorizo, Mustamakkara, Ciauscolo, Cotechino Modena, Frikandel and so on. Should you merge those articles into the kielbasa too?


eWarrington (talk) 14:11, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Real kielbasa uses only the choicest cuts of tender pork"

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The above sentence sounds more like an advertisement than a encyclopedia entry; moreover it is probably not true since the kielbasa is described as a "staple" rather than a luxury food and use of the best meat would make it prohibitively expensive. --Georgius (talk) 13:40, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Cosmi (talk) 21:56, 1 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Polish sausage

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It says "Ukrainian sausage" as an alternate name... but isn't it also called "Polish sausage" ? 76.66.192.144 (talk) 04:16, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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especially in the comedic sense 12.41.255.10 (talk) 13:30, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

the heading "Poland and the Polish diaspora" and "Ukraine and the Ukrainian diaspora"

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I don't understand it. What does kielbasa has to do with Polish diaspora? I think it's misleading. Even more so in the case of Ukraine, where the only mentioned thing is pronunciation. Consider deleting "and the x diaspora" part. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.231.178.65 (talk) 00:14, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Kielbasy

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Some authentic places [1] in NYC sell it as Kielbasy (full disclosure: I go there for the pierogi). There is a village in Poland with the name but I have no idea if it is related at all. I realize this is an old article but I searched Wikipedia for Kielbasy thinking sausage and was directed to the village, which had no link to this page. Unmasked (talk) 17:58, 15 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ http://www.menupages.com/menuprocess?id=2475&link=427e6fe7ada47b63c73f94ce186695760d28cc1e7d5494ddca8956fafeb3b85b

Badly sourced and badly balanced

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I note that there's been nothing of significance added to improve the quality of this article for years. Judging by discussions on the talk page, a few previous developers and purveyors of fine (bolshi great) klobaserscontent decided to merge all Eastern Slavic sausages into a single article, yet retain emphasis on the number and 'world renown' (er, where was the RS for that?) deliciousness of Polish sausages.

Not only is it lacking in what would actually qualify as being WP:RS, WP:BOLLOCKS and assorted other chunks of WP:OR have been thrown into the mix since anyone bothered with retaining it on their watchlist. Suggested reciperemedy: time to re-stuff this intestinearticle with some fresh, quality chunks of RS. Bad puns aside, this is a mess pretending to be informative. If you can't even get IPA transliterations right, how can anything else be taken as good coin. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:36, 23 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

kielbasa biala

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Is this really significantly less common? I can buy it in the polish foods section of my local tesco. Maybe it is untypical.but not uncommon? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.37.173.247 (talk) 10:37, 6 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'm leaving your addition for the moment, but I'm uncertain as to which came first: kielbasa biala or Weisswurst? This is where reliable sources are essential, and what the article is lacking. I know I can by the same at most delicatessen sections of supermarkets in Australia, but they're known as weisswurst (unless I by it from a small, boutique Polish delicatessen). If I buy it from a Hungarian or other Central European deli, it's weisswurst... and, yes, there are multiple permutations on the ingredients, and how it is served, but not enough to distinguish it from being regional takes on the same basic sausage. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:42, 7 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

As I recall kielbasa biala was included in the article prior to my amendments and I merely added it to the list and restructured the content. It was not my intent to insert any speculation on its derivation and relationship to equivalent sausages in other countries. I what interested me was claims of its rarity clashed somewhat with my experience. I am not sure why I did not insert a citation needed requesting a citation of its rarity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.37.173.247 (talk) 21:09, 26 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

My apologies if my more generalised query came across as sounding as if the onus was on you to provide references, 82.37.173.247. That was certainly not my intent. Yes, kielbasa biala was already referenced in the article. What I'm trying to establish is whether it was adopted under the Austro-Hungarian Empire, as many foodstuffs were, from regions under their jurisdiction, or whether it was a regional sausage recipe specific to Polish cuisine which became popular under the name of Weisswurst (literally "white sausage"). There is cuisine that can be traced back to a specific region, and there are foods that were - conversely - adopted in regions under the influence of the empire. It would be useful to find reliable sources in order to ascertain which came first. The usage of different forms of the name in the Anglosphere doesn't necessarily reflect the origins, only the predominant nomenclature in any given part of the world outside of its origins. Consequently, I'm going to tag it as needing references for its origins in the actual article. Cheers! --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:10, 2 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Nutritional values?

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Pretty obvious that there would be a wide range of values there, but I came to the article from a reference that suggested it might be unusually high in calories or something else that might be generally bad or only bad in excess. Even more clarity on the ingredients would be helpful, but I guess what I really wanted to know is the percentage of fats, perhaps in comparison to other kinds of sausage... Shanen (talk) 08:02, 17 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'm uncertain as to what your expectations are of an article on cuisines from around the world. This isn't the medical article component of Wikipedia - therefore we're not qualified to speculate on beneficial or non-beneficial aspects regarding health - nor are we qualified to make guesstimates regarding calories/kilojoules as there would not be a standard unless you bought them pre-packaged with such information provided by the manufacturers. It's WP:OFFTOPIC for the purposes of this article (per WP:TITLE). --Iryna Harpy (talk) 10:08, 17 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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The first picture

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There is no mustard;-) The big round object is a slice of kielbasa krakowska, the white curved shape is a (boiled) white sausage. Also, I'm sure that the second from the left is not kabanos, but a sausage called frankfurterka [[5]], [[6]]. But there is an additional problem, the name "frankfurterka" means also Frankfurter Würstchen, quite different sausage. Bartekltg (talk) 11:14, 23 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Kiełbasa a type of sausage?

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The first sentence says: Kiełbasa is a type of sausage from Central Europe. Given the content of the article it becomes quite obvious that kiełbasa is nothing more than the polish word for sausage in general, i.e. also Turkish, German or British sausages would be termed “kiełbasa” by a native Polish speaker (cf. pl:Kiełbasa). Any of the sausages that are collectivley termed “kiełbasa” in the article may have more in common with certain non-Polish sausages than they have with each other. For instance, the kiełbasa biała appears to have more in common with a coarse blanched type of German Bratwurst than with kiełbasa wiejska and the latter appears to have more in common with a sausage originating from the alpine realm called Tiroler Salami (“Tyrol salami”) in German. So, this article is misleading in suggesting that kiełbasa is a certain type of sausage. The same applies for the terms hu:kolbász and uk:kovbasa. So maybe, in analogy to Kolbász, the lemma/headword of the article should be changed to Polish sausages (which currently redirects to Kaszanka, a polish blood sausage, OMG, what a mess) with kielbasa kept as a redirect. --Gretarsson (talk) 15:33, 10 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

As a loanword in English, kielbasa is indeed a particular variety of sausage originating from Central Europe. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 19:24, 10 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed... but I'm not sure of where you got the 'Central Europe' from. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 20:57, 10 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Is there any dictionary entry (or similar) that supports your claim? --Gretarsson (talk) 00:19, 12 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Gretarsson Erhem... the link I gave at dictionary.com immediately above supports this 'claim'. Given the amount of disagreement and redirects over the years, and the fact that other variants of the name are equally prevalent as 'loanwords' dependent on which English speaking nation-state you come from, I haven't seen any compelling arguments for 'Kielbasa' as the WP:COMMONNAME. Polish sausage is Polish sausage... but it's only one type of 'Kielbasa'. Everything about the nomenclature for this article is awry. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:23, 12 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Kiełbasa is not just the Polish word for sausage in general, i.e. everywhere. Kiełbasa is the Polish word for what's known as kiełbasa in Poland. According to Joanna Górska from Warsaw Polytechnic,[1] the taste of Polish sausage depends on the type of meat as much as the remaining ingredients and the method of conservation. Poeticbent talk 00:55, 12 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  1. ^ Joanna Górska, MBA (2013-08-10). "Definicja kiełbasy". Portal dla konsumentów żywności funkcjonalnej. Smak kiełbasy zależy nie tylko od rodzaju mięsa, z którego została wykonana, ale w równie znacznym stopniu od proporcji domieszek oraz sposobu konserwacji.
LOL, it says that: “Kiełbasy to przetwory mięsne w osłonkach naturalnych lub sztucznych. Wyprodukowane z rozdrobnionego mięsa wieprzowego bądź z dodatkiem mięsa wołowego peklowanego, niepeklowanego lub drobiowego.” In English: “Kiełbasy are meat products in natural or artificial casings. Made from minced pork and/or corned beef or poultry.” This definition, my dear, is met by a large amount of sausages all over the world. It's a very weak defintion that supports my view rather than yours ;-). --Gretarsson (talk) 02:31, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
LOL indeed. Salceson (pl) is not "kiełbasa" in Polish, but it is a "sausage" in Germany. Poeticbent talk 21:33, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
What about the above cited definition? Is it weak or is it not? Are a large amount of types of sausages from all over the world made of chopped pork, beef or poultry stuffed in a casing or are they not?
Regarding Salceson: Apparently related to the German Sülzwurst and Sülze. So, the German Wurst may include some more sausage-like products than the polish kiełbasa, but that doesn't change the fact that the latter is a collective term too (see definition), albeit a less inclusive one. Btw.: Salceson in the English speaking realm apparently is either not referred to as sausage, but as head cheese. --Gretarsson (talk) 00:53, 17 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The main issue with the argument for excluding the rest of Central Europe is that (aside from sounding nationalistic) Poland and Ukraine are both part of a larger region that has been conquered, repopulated and re-conquered multiple times over the past millennium. National boundaries -- even nation states themselves -- have been fluid. The Ottoman Empire controlled most of the region as recently as 400 years ago and had a substantial effect on the cuisine, particularly along the Adriatic Coast and the Carpathian Mountains. The paprika used in various dishes, and in particular, smoked kielbasa, came directly into the region via the Turks. The fact that kielbasa itself is a cognate of Turkic languages should indicate that the sausage cannot have its origins pinpointed in Poland or the Ukraine -- two nations with slavic languages. Hungarians, Romanians, Croats and Serbs (among others) all have similar sausages and in the case of kolbaz and kobasica use the same Turkic cognate. The article itself even identifies the article itself explains regional similar sausages in the Balkans and former Austro-Hungarian Empire states... yet makes no case for how and why kielbasa is itself native to Ukraine and Poland. The short answer is that it is exactly because there is no way to do so. We aren't talking about something from an isolated region where it can be established exactly within whose borders it was invented. It is far more accurate to say Central Europe than it is to say one or two countries. Especially given the evidence of basically the same types of sausages in several current states within the region.Ryecatcher773 (talk) 01:51, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Your rationalisation is entirely WP:OR. How did you get around to deciding that it's 'Central European' just for starters? When have Ukraine (and Russia, for that matter) ever been defined as 'central Europe' or, per the Turkic connection argument, how does that fit into the 'central European' conclusion? Dodger67, while you've made a righteous change here, it appears that you did not check the references Ryecatcher773 contradicted with their changes here. Please check the source (here) for the Canadian usage which has been changed from "a corruption of the Ukrainian kovbasa (ковбаса)" to "Russian kolbasa (колбаса)" (without even bothering to change the language parameter from Ukrainian to Russian!). Where is the Russian language even mentioned in the article? --Iryna Harpy (talk) 19:39, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
First off, I never 'decided' that Poland was Central European, if you know anything of European geography it is absolutely a fact that Poland it part of Central Europe. My edit only stated originating in Central Europe. Which, Poland is in fact part of. And it isn't clear cut which country the sausage was invented in -- and if it is, then where exactly is the evidence citing it?
In case you'd rather not go look it up in a library or ask a teacher, you can simply check the articles for both Central Europe and Poland before telling me I'm doing 'original research'. If anything, I'd call itoriginal research to not provide the history of sausages in the region where it actually shows how and when it was a definitively Polish/Ukrainian invention (i.e. actually applying real conclusive facts to the article). Either way, other Central European states including (most notably) Hungary also can lay claim to being the origin of a common food found (again) throughout the region (again, the same Turkic cognate shared with kielbasa is used in kolbaz). And it also isn't 'original research' to state the rationalism for Central Europe being a region in flux over the past 500 years and that includes national boundaries and ethnic identities. There is nothing in the article that affirms the rationalism for kielbasa (other than the Polish word... which is borrowed from a non-Polish -- or Slavic -- source) being a Polish or Ukrainian invention. To do so, especially without the proper citations, is factually inaccurate. And it doesn't come across as rational or historically true but rather as nationalistic.
This should be brought to a consensus, because as it reads right now, the larger family of sausages from Poland and the sausage that (as the article states) is most commonly understood to be kielbasa are two different subjects and this entire article is essentially one hot mess if it isn't clarified. Either way, Poland is part of Central Europe. That is absolutely not original research, which measn my edit was also not inaccurate -- or original.Ryecatcher773 (talk) 04:06, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The statement "...is most commonly understood to be kielbasa" is incomplete. From the context it's reasonable to presume that "is most commonly understood in North America to be kielbasa" is what is really meant. That may just be the problem: What Americans and Canadians call kielbasa may or may not coincide or overlap with the sausage terminology used in central/eastern Europe, where the word (and it's cognates/variants) originated. It appears to be a bit messier and indefinite than some editors may wish/hope it to be. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 18:25, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I am not even concerned about the nomenclature issues (which are well documented across the archives of this talk page). Dodger67, did you not even notice that the latest blind revert by Ryecatcher773 (here) has again restored "Russian kolbasa (колбаса)" - which is sourced - and falsifies what the source says. It is also straight out edit warring which, as an admin, you would be well aware of. Whatever issues need to be addressed, we should be following WP:BRD... and the version that stood prior any WP:OR and plain falsification (including the WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT arguments being pulled out here) is the consensus version. The article has been problematic from the inception as it conflates Slavic variants of the word for 'sausage' and redirects them here... so how is that representational of central Europe? Neither the Russian 'kolbasa', nor the Ukrainian 'kovbasa' are the Polish 'kielbasa', yet those articles have been turned into redirects. If we are dealing with WP:COMMONNAME for the article's WP:TITLE, then the article deals with that term exclusively. What, then, happens to the now defunct articles dealing with the Eastern European sausages also known in, and sold commercially, in the Western world, by their Anglicized COMMONNAME? --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:50, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Ryecatcher773: constantly coming back and changing the content of the article to your preferred version is edit warring. If you wish to contest the veracity of content in any given article and are reverted, you follow [[WP:BRD]. It is also required that you present verifiable, reliable sources in order to change content that is already sourced, not your personal opinion on what is true or untrue. WP:BURDEN has been met that the term applies to a sausage that, in the English speaking world, is understood to be Polish and Ukrainian, and Ukraine has never been described as central Europe, just as Poland is not simply defined as central Europe. There have been edit wars enough over the issue of whether Poland is defined as Eastern Europe or central Europe, so don't wave other Wikipedia articles in my face to justify your breach of WP:NOR. Suggested reading: WP:WINARS. Discussions take place on article talk pages, not WP:BATTLEGROUND edit summaries. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 20:44, 18 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]


First, if you look at the edit history, I am not the only one taking issue with your claim, as there are others who have made changes (both recently and in the past) to the lead regarding the inclusion of Hungary and/or simply saying Central (or mentioning both Central and Eastern Europe). And for the record, whatever you want to believe, geographically speaking, if you tell the average Pole on the street in America that h/she is Eastern European (and in Chicago, where one of the largest Polish populations in the world lives outside of Poland, there's a massive presence of Polish speaking people and I've had this conversation before) they will quickly point out that Poles are not Eastern European but Central European (I can't speak for your Australian Poles, but I can guarantee we have more Poles here in Chicago alone than you do down under).
Secondly, your statement, the term applies to a sausage that, in the English speaking world, is understood to be Polish and Ukrainian is not only a broad assumption (you're going to speak for the entire English speaking world?), it is inaccurate. Forget the semantics of spelling for a moment -- if you say kielbasa (or kolbasa as it is commonly called) in Cleveland, which is where I am originally from the large Hungarian population there will most certainly not understand what you've stated 'in the English speaking world' to be Polish or Ukrainian but rather Hungarian. And in Chicago, the word kielbasa is not typically even used at all by the average non-Polish speaking Chicagoan, but rather it is called Polish Sausage and it's a common staple of the city's cuisine (...and you can verify my claim by looking at any online menu for any hotdog stand in the metropolitan area -- and there's hundreds of them in the city alone), so your theory seems to not exactly apply to at least two major American cities.
Thirdly, you call me out for WP:OR for simply pointing out that historically the region and its national borders has been in flux for centuries (thereby making it difficult to accurately ascribe any national origin of the sausage -- regardless of how it is spelled) and meanwhile, your own position of denying anything other than what your own viewpoint is informed by reeks of serious WP: Ownership issues and, to be honest, even a modicum of nationalism -- especially given your proclaimed heritage and knowledge of Ukrainian, Russian and Polish on your user page. The article itself even discusses the variants and similarities in other sausages from nations in that region, which makes it hard to pinpoint. You're approaching my proposed edit of taking a more diplomatic and inclusive approach by simply saying Central and/or Eastern European as though I were declaring that it isn't part of Polish or Ukrainian culture. Which is clearly not what I am trying to say.
The problem with the article in the first place is that it is convoluted mess, from the linguistic origins of the name to the types of similar sausages found throughout the region. Meanwhile the article leads off declaring that they are strictly original to two countries. Perhaps overhaul it completely or broaden it? Just a suggestion, which will likely fall on deaf ears (or in this case blind eyes).
Whatever the case, I've said my piece. Do whatever you want with the article. I really don't care enough to bother with is anymore. I do find it curious, however, that you made an argument for regional inclusion rather than 'battling for ethnic identity' (your word) on the Rye Bread article a few years back, but in the case of this particular foodstuff (which originated in one of the most historically disputed regions of any continent on the planet) you're digging in your heels and excluding everywhere else in the region that is not Ukraine or Poland. But hey, whatever you want. I'm done. Peace out. Ryecatcher773 (talk) 00:06, 19 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

kw

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"kiełbasa wiejska (farmhouse sausage) — which is what most people think of when they hear "kielbasa"." -- Maybe, but why is there no entry for this term in the Polish Wikipedia?Kdammers (talk) 02:11, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Removal of ł

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Not clear why ł has been removed? In ictu oculi (talk) 11:47, 3 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 3 January 2018

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. See a fair consensus not to rename this page to include the "L with a stroke". Happy Publishing! (closed by page mover)  Paine Ellsworth  put'r there  07:33, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Kielbasa → Kiełbasa – No downside. There's a long history, since the 1950s, of not being able to display the ł but now sources can Lonely Planet Poland (2016) : Kiełbasa and so does Wikipedia in other Category:Polish cuisine articles. The only problem I can see here is that to many readers (and sources), Kiełbasa is not Polish, but Polish-American, and therefore apparently pronounced "kilbasa" in Chicago, while in the UK this is pronounced [kʲɛwˈbasa] like Polish. I can understand that. However on balance this is an international Wikipedia, and therefore there is no downside to having the "-w" sound rather than the "-ll" sound in the title. In ictu oculi (talk) 12:02, 3 January 2018 (UTC) --Relisted.  Paine Ellsworth  put'r there  14:34, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

— Things are not always what they seem; only the fluent reader of Polish, like myself, could react the way I did originally, when reading kielbasa as a common word in Polish ... sans the diacritic. Kielbasa is a English loanword on top of being a probable error in Polish. Similar traps run across the entire Wikipedia projects, with German speakers adding Umlaut marks wherever they can and others correcting a gamut of loanwords to their preferred spelling. Poeticbent talk 21:21, 8 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Naturalized loanwords can also have diacritics in them, like the word Communiqué for example. Poeticbent talk 07:12, 5 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - per Academicoffee71. If the word was naturalised and entered the leading English academic dictionaries, one should use the spelling used in those dictionaries. Oxford dictionary: kielbasa, Webster's dictionary: kielbasa, both use no diacritics. In contrast, pączki are not available in these dictionaries, so the word is not yet naturalised, and one can use the original form pączki. --Off-shell (talk) 09:19, 5 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Exactly. This Polish-Engish dictionary does not know the English word "kielbasa". It knows only "sausage". For this dictionary "kiełbasa" is a Polish word. However, the dictionaries above (Oxford and Webster's) list "kielbasa" as an English word. This means the word "kielbasa" exists in English but is not as widespread as "sausage". But since it exists, it has precedence over the Polish word "kiełbasa". --Off-shell (talk) 07:59, 6 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. This article is not just about the Polish variant of the sausage, but also the Ukrainian, Hungarian, American, and Canadian variants, among others, each with its own name. Since there is a common English-language spelling of the American variant, and this is an English-language encyclopedia, we should use that spelling as the umbrella term describing all the variants (which should of course be used in their respective paragraphs). See also borscht, bagel, etc. Dohn joe (talk) 17:43, 6 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - The history of the article (and talk page, for that matter) clearly demonstrates that the article covers a generalised term in the English language, as does the content. 'Kolbasa', 'Kovbasa', etc. have all been merged into the single umbrella article (as noted by Dohn joe. If you want the WP:TITLE as "kiełbasa", then separate articles must be recreated for the other Eastern European 'sausages' (that's what the word actually means!). It's either an article about one specific ethnic food (being Polish sausage), or it's a broad scope article. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:52, 8 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Re-scope, and either don't move or move to Polish sausage or Sausage of Poland. Kiełbasa is the Polish word for 'sausage', not a specific style. Kielbasa and Polish sausage are North American English names for Polska kielbasa wędzona. We need to decide whether this article is about that specific style, or about the sausages of Poland in general. But what's worse is that this article is trying to account for sausage in every culture whose word for sausage is a cognate of kiełbasa, which makes it a cfork of Sausage with some WP:NOTDICTIONARY issues. That information needs to be moved to standalone articles (cf. Hungarian sausages) or merged into Sausage. Ibadibam (talk) 20:11, 8 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • If I understand correctly, sausage is ANY sausage, kielbasa (on the other hand), is a smoked sausage of a specific variety in the English-speaking world. This article is about that variety. Right? Poeticbent talk 17:23, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Of distinct sausage varieties covered in the present article, I count 10 Polish, 10 Hungarian and 3 Ukrainian, as well as a number of vaguely defined sausages from the rest of the world, making for around 30 sausage varieties covered, several of which already have standalone articles. The sections on Poland and Hungary cover all domestic sausage styles for those countries; the section on Ukraine covers a subset of domestic sausaages; the sentence on Russia covers all sausage, foreign and domestic; the sections on the US, Canada and the rest of the world cover sausages made in any Eastern European style. Ibadibam (talk) 20:09, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are similar cases: In Japanese the word kabocha is any squash or pumpkin. The English word kabocha is a specific variety. I also oppose the move. The Polish word kiełbasa can refer to any sausage, while the English word kielbasa can't. --Phonet (talk) 19:52, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

I want to move this article from "kielbasa" to "kiełbasa".

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I want to do it, because someone misspelled the word "kiełbasa". I would just simply copy everything from this article, and paste the text into the new one. Almost everyone writes that word wrong. I live in Poland (correct me for grammar mistakes), so, I just want everyone to know the mistake. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.21.151.87 (talk) 20:17, 12 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

In English-speaking countries where Poles constitute a significant minority (United States, Canada and others) the conventional spelling is "kielbasa". The Polish spelling is provided in the lead [introductory] section for clarification. Merangs (talk) 20:40, 12 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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