Talk:Japanese tea ceremony

Toucha (闘茶)

I think an entry on toucha/"tea tournament" might be interesting, but I'm not sure where to include it. Chris.n.richardson 10:45, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I have now included some brief discussion in the History section about this.Tksb (talk) 01:17, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

introductory image

The image seems hardly a good representation of the topic, Japanese tea ceremony; the place where the lady in kimono is sitting seiza to make tea in the most simple chanoyu fashion is quite unique, and it seems better to this writer not to present this as the introductory image for this article.Tksb (talk) 03:39, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

The hardly representative image of Japanese tea ceremony (chanoyu) appears here and there in wikipedia articles about Japan. Since it is not representative of Japanese tea ceremony, I am taking the liberty of deleting it here.Tksb (talk) 11:14, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't think the image is hardly representable. Why do you think the place is unique? It's simply an image of nodate/野点 and I find nothing wrong with it.This is one of Nodate images at the urasenke official site. As there's no other good image, I don't agree the removal of the image. Oda Mari (talk) 15:10, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Nodate in the first place is not representative. The nodate (outdoors tea preparation) place where the lady sits obviously is at the foot of a building, where even nodate would hardly take place in any kind of representative nodate circumstance. This, therefore, is NOT a GOOD image; and, in my opinion, placing it up front as a sort of representative image does not do justice to this whole article. Also, from where this image comes is something that I do not know, but at the least, it does not come from the urasenke official site. Tksb (talk) 04:28, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

As a Japanese editor, I still think there's nothing wrong with the image. According to the urasenke pages, they call these are nodate too. See the image at the right bottom and the image at the bottom. And as far as I know, there is no rule about the place where you have and have not to do nodate. But if you still think the image is inappropriate, I think you should find and upload a substitute. There are many images of Japanese tea ceremony at Flickr and you can use some like [1], [2], and [3]. So choose an available image you think the best for the article there. Regards. Oda Mari (talk) 05:44, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

What we are looking for in an image placed at the head of an article, I believe, is something as least unique/strange as possible, so as to be a general representation of the theme of the article. The image that I took the liberty of removing shows a woman obviously sitting directly outside the "yukashita" (space underneath the floor) of some old temple or structure of the like (yes, describable as nodate, though certainly a queer place to sit and make tea), and using unique equipment. Sadly, none of the other suggested images are good, either. I am working on trying to procure a generally representative image that can be put up "for grabs" on the internet, and hopefully can come up with something soon. Meanwhile, until I can manage that, I have no intention of interferring if other experts believe tbat the deleted image is a "good image", or that it is better than nothing, and decide to put it up again.Tksb (talk) 14:33, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

If you really think it is better than nothing, please restore the image until you find a better image. Although I disagree with you, I won't restore it, respecting your good faith. What do you mean by yukashita in the image? If you mean the space under the veranda, I do not call or think the space as yukashita but call it ennoshita/縁の下. Yukashita is the space beyond the white wall. BTW, do you know there's a different version at Commons? [4] You can ask the uploader the information of the image. As for Flickr, it seems to me that there are some images we can use for tea-related articles like this. And how about this? Hope you find a better image soon. Oda Mari (talk) 07:16, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your good faith. The reason I deleted the image is because I did (do) not think it was (is) better than nothing. What I meant by "directly outside the yukashita" is the rim of area just outside the ennoshita (outer hallway/veranda) of the building which appears to be an old temple. The different version of the image which you pointed me to verifies the less-than-representative nature of the image. The artistic shot in the next image, sadly, is problematic as well, the chasen being crooked and no chakin being in sight, despite the explanation. Regards, Tksb (talk) 12:00, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

venue room size

To my knowledge, the smallest possible tea room is 1 tatami plus daime; one tatami required for the guest(s), and at least a daime required for the tea-making. Unless the statement about the smallest possible size being 1.5 tatami can be backed up, I believe this statement requires correction.Tksb (talk) 13:19, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Call it 1 3/4 mats then. I have, however, seen 1.5 mat setups with one mat for the host (with furo) and a half mat for one guest. Exploding Boy (talk) 16:12, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

I watched a TV program on Rikyu and HIdeyoshi today. According to the program, Rikyu used 1.5 mats room. I watched a 2 mats tea house on the program. But there was no mention on 1 mat. I don't think correction is needed. Oda Mari (talk) 16:04, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Changes to article

I'm explaining some of the changes I've made throughout the article here as a courtesy, since I know a couple of editors have worked a lot on the article since I first fully expanded it.

• I've give the term "chanoyu" less prominence in general. Sadō/chadō are by far the more commonly used terms
• I removed the claim that "rooms for teaching tea ceremony are generally at least six tatami in floor space." In my fairly long experience with tea in 3 different schools, the use of hiroma for lessons has been the very rare exception rather than the rule. Common sense dictates that, both in Japan and around the world, many teachers work out of their private homes, in which a 4.5 mat room is the standard. However, I have also taken regular classes in large tea houses containing several chashitsu, and 90% of the time we used only the 4.5 mat room. The only place I have studied where a hiroma was in consistent use for lessons was in a temple that didn't have a smaller room.
• I've removed the claim that "If and when the venue for the event makes use of more than one room (space), it is not uncommon for one to be devoted to the preparation and drinking of koicha and the other(s) to usucha, and a tenshin snack to also be offered somewhere." I have never seen this happen or read about it, and it strikes me as fairly unlikely for several reasons. For one thing, if a nijiriguchi is in use (as it would be in any venue that had this many rooms available), the guests enter and exit via the same door each time. While in larger venues guests might be greeted and served a drink in a separate waiting room before the event begins, the entire subsequent event takes place in a single room, partly because part of the enjoyment of a chaji is seeing how the host has redecorated the room. For another thing, changing rooms like this would require setting charcoal and keeping it burning AND keeping water at the consistently correct temperature in 2 separate ro or furo, which is very, very unlikely.
• Removed the unsourced claim that "Nowadays commonly only usucha is served in most of chakai."

Exploding Boy (talk) 16:54, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

• A room at least 6 tatami in floor space is required for the shichijishiki teaching exercises as well as for a teacher to have any more than a small handful of students at a time, a situation that happens at a great many keikoba in Japan.
• On the occasions of chakai involving many guests, it is not unusual and in fact is quite common for there to be a koicha-seki, one or more usucha-seki, and a tenshin-seki.

Tksb (talk) 09:58, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Regarding keiko, the word "generally" suggests that this is the most common arrangement; I don't think that's true. Particularly if a teacher is following the custom of having senior students teach less senior students, not all of them need to be in the tea room at the same time: some might be learning things in the mizuya while others are practicing guest duties and one student is performing a temae for the teacher, for instance. As for chakai involving many guests, that's potentially a different story, but I'd still like to see a reference. Exploding Boy (talk) 14:48, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Punctuation marks inside the Quotation marks

Regarding the edit[5] made by User:Exploding Boy, a discussion is being made hereWikipedia talk:Manual of Style#Related argument at Japanese tea ceremony. Please participate in the discussion there. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 22:25, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

As that discussion was fairly clear that the guideline is still indeed the guideline, I've restored the "logical" quotes. 84.203.43.70 (talk) 02:44, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

"The" Japanese Tea Ceremony

Many English language sources do refer to "the" Japanese Tea Ceremony, yes, but that's not strictly accurate. Given that there are dozens (if not hundreds) of schools and hundreds of temae, there is no such thing as one monolithic or representative "Japanese tea ceremony."

To begin with, "tea ceremony" isn't really an accurate translation of cha/sa-dō. "The Way of Tea" is an appropriate translation, a "the" is appropriate as it describes a particular thing. The English phrase "Japanese tea ceremony" is really an all inclusive term that covers cha/sa-dō, chanoyu, temae, chaji and chakai, terms and concepts for which there are more accurate translations. As a general, rather than a specific, term, it is more accurate to call it "Japanese tea ceremony" rather than "The Japanese tea ceremony." Exploding Boy (talk) 22:06, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

As a matter of grammar, a definite or indefinite article (the or a) is necessary. One would not write, for example, "American Flag is the symbol of the United States" (one would begin the sentence with the), or, "Chair is a piece of furnature" (one would begin the sentence with a). In this instance, the sounds more appropriate, but a case could be made for a. Wikipedia's practice is to follow the sources in situation-specific usage questions of this kind. —Finell 23:20, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

The American flag is a specific thing, thus "the" is needed, while tea ceremony is a general thing, so no, an article isn't needed. "A" wouldn't be appropriate here unless "tea ceremony" was being used to mean a chakai or a chaji, which isn't what the Japanese tea ceremony article is about. I've also just realized that you altered the lead in such a way that it is less clear and less correct. It used to read:

Japanese tea ceremony, also called "the Way of Tea," is a multifarious cultural activity which centers on the ceremonial preparation and presentation of the powdered green tea known as matcha. In Japanese, it is called chanoyu (茶の湯) or chadō ([茶道; also pronounced sadō] Error: {{nihongo}}: text has italic markup (help)). The manner in which it is performed, or the art of its performance, is known as temae (点前). Zen Buddhism was integral to the development of tea ceremony, and this Zen influence pervades many aspects of it.

The last sentence was a little awkward, but now it reads:

The Japanese tea ceremony, also called the Way of Tea, a Japanese cultural activity, is the ceremonial preparation and presentation of matcha, powdered green tea. In Japanese, it is called chanoyu (茶の湯) or chadō (茶道; also pronounced sadō?). The manner in which it is performed, or the art of its performance, is called temae (点前?). Zen Buddhism was a primary influence in the development of the tea ceremony.

The important point which has been lost is that it is a multifarious activity, or really group of activities, not a single monolithic thing (like a chair, the American flag, or the London Underground), and the English term "Japanese tea ceremony" has various meanings relating to all or various of those activities.

I propose to rewrite the first paragraph as follows:

The Way of Tea (茶道, chadō or sadō), known in English as Japanese Tea Ceremony, is a multifarious cultural activity which centers on the ceremonial preparation and presentation of matcha, powdered green tea. "Tea ceremony" may refer to the aesthetic or discipline as a whole (sometimes known in Japanese as chanoyu (茶の湯), literally "hot water for tea"); a specific tea ritual or method of preparation (in Japanese 点前 temae); or a tea gathering (chakai (茶会) or chaji (茶事) in Japanese). Zen Buddhism was a primary influence in the development of the tea ceremony.

Exploding Boy (talk) 03:33, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Let's see what other editors of article have to say. "The" should not be boldface. It sounds odd to say that an English phrase "is known in English as" something else. Also, did you meant to eliminate the wikilinks? Multifarious is an excessively ornate word. Why is the proper in "the Way of Tea", but not in "the Japanese Tea Ceremony", if they mean the same thing? We use the most common English term for the title, and for the same reason that should be the first term mentioned in the first sentence of the lead. One article or the other is grammatically necessary (my second example was "chair"), and "the Japanese Tea Ceremony" is the most common English usage, in my experience. Do you have sources to the contrary? —Finell 06:41, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

This discussion brings our attention to the long-standing problems of the English reference to chanoyu (or chado) as "(the) Japanese tea ceremony." In my opinion, just because this is an article in the English Wikipedia, it needn't perpetrate the basically problematic English 'misnomer' which is the cause of much misconception and confusion about the multifarious tradition and activity. The word "chanoyu" has an entry in the unabridged Webster's Third New International Dictionary of the English Language. Since "Japanese tea ceremony" is certainly the widespread English phrase used to refer to it, the English Wikipedia should have an article titled "Japanese tea ceremony", which, in my opinion, should direct to an article about this subject that is titled "Chanoyu". By making this change -- (which will surely cause repercussions elsewhere in the wikipedia links) -- and for the most part 'abandoning' the English misnomer thereafter, I feel that the English Wikipedia will serve well in bringing the reader to a better understanding of this realm of Japanese culture.Tksb (talk) 02:02, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Naming the article "Chanoyu" would not comply with Wikipedia's naming conventions, especially the injunction to use English|. However, if "Japanese tea ceremony" is a misnomer, the body of the article (not necessarily the lead section) should include an explanation from one or more published reliable sources. —Finell 02:31, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

How about the Dictionary of the English Language that I cite above; can not the fact that "chanoyu" has an entry there be taken to mean that "chanoyu" is an accepted word in the English language, much like countless other words that have been assimilated into the language, such as "kimono," "manga," "ikebana," ........?Tksb (talk) 08:34, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

No. It is not the term that most English speaking readers would use, which is the main guideline for naming articles. Again, it's fine to discuss the "correct" terminology in the body of the article, with citation to one or more reliable sources.—Finell 03:17, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

On the "Holy Roman Empire" scale of misnomers, "Japanese tea ceremony" seems pretty accurate, to this non-expert. (It's Japanese, involves tea, and has a ritualised quality to it.) Rather this is getting into "preferred terminology" territory. Sounds like you want to "lead" English usage on that, Tksb, whereas Wikipedia practice is very much to follow. There's already a link from chanoyu, and it's mentioned in the article. It's not a remotely feasible candidate for the main title, for the reasons Finell gives. It may be that you can make a case for a naming/terminology discussion, and/or promote that term to also being a bold alt-title. (My impression, though, is that its claim to be an "English word" is a little weak: if we were playing Scrabble, I'd certainly challenge. Rather, it's the sort of word that people will use in an English sentence, but either italicised, indicating a "foreign word", or else immediately followed by an explanation of what it means, similarly subverting its case for full-fledged word-dom. Smartiger (talk) 08:05, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Thank you, Smartiger, for your kind and astute input on the matter. I do understand, and though I feel it is a great pity that people, in my experience, have great misconceptions about chado which largely stem from its being called a/the "Japanese Tea Ceremony," I recognize the futility of abruptly trying to replace this long-standing English 'name' for it.Tksb (talk) 06:04, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

茶道

This is a great article on Japanese tea ceremony/chado but term 茶道 should have a choice or going the the Chinese tea culture article until a Chinese tea ceremony/chadao is created.

Added a choice from 茶道 The Way of Tea, to Japanese tea ceremony, Chinese tea ceremony. icetea (talk) 10:57, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Teaism

A suggestion for first sentence of article, is to add teaism reference.

Such as:

The Japanese tea ceremony, also called the Way of Tea, or Teaism.....

icetea8 (talk) 13:27, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

The meals

Would you be nice, Phoenix7777 and leave at least one picture about what kind of meals are served at the tea ceremony? Or find a picture you feel is alright. It is quite important I think that people know about that it is not only tea is consumded but a light meal is served also, and how this meal is served and how it looks like. Hafspajen (talk) 03:41, 15 January 2014 (UTC).

The image I removed are about matcha tea and wagashi. If you have knowledge about the Japanese tea ceremony, you would understand they are not Kaiseki meals. See Kaiseki and commons:Category:Kaiseki. Anyway the section's main article is Kaiseki and the section is a summary section, the gallery is not needed. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 04:23, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

• I think it is needed. Exactly because of the reasons I gave you above. It is quite important I think that people know about that it is not only tea is consumded but a light meal is served also, and how this meal is served and how it looks like. I was asking you to please present any meal that you know for sure is kaseki to all us who don't know the difference but want to... know-.

We are not helped by two empty bowls. I definitely think that a meal should be depicted in THIS article. This is one of the books week part - they just talk and talk about everything else but the meal. But then they probably think that if anybody is interested they should go and by a separate book on the topic. If you are not interested to add I will take some picture, not from the gallery here, because as you say, those pics are not reliable, but from the article. Hafspajen (talk) 04:26, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Demographics and gender roles, formerly and now

I think the article would be improved by more information, or perhaps a section, on the demographics of the tea ceremony. In traditional practice, were the host and guest roles traditionally performed by men, by women, or in mixed groups? If the latter, were there more or less subtle differences in the way men and women performed or spoke in these roles, perhaps paralleling the Gender differences in spoken Japanese. Were the participants usually unrelated, or could they be members of the same nuclear or extended family? Did children ever participate in the tea ceremony, and if so how were they expected to behave? How have these things changed in recent decades, with growing expectations of social equality between men and women, and growing inclusion of children in family activities? Was the tea ceremony traditionally limited to privileged or aristocratic adults, or were variations of it practiced by all socioeconomic strata? How has the tea ceremony practice changed in response to modern aspirations toward equality, or at least equal rights, of all members of society?CharlesHBennett (talk) 06:55, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

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Photos

Similar to the discussion on images in Talk:Geisha#Photos, please post only quality images of direct relevance. Gryffindor (talk) 16:41, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

Probable influence of Catholic ceremony of the Eucharist

The etiquette rules of sadō (茶道), which are unique to Japan, are believed to have originated in, or at least been influenced by the Catholic ceremony of the Eucharist, or even Transubstantiation - the transformation of bread and wine in the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ in the act of consecration.

Whether this is true or not is still a matter of debate among scholars, but it is a historical fact that the rules of the tea ceremony still practiced today were established during the rule of shogun Oda Nobunaga in 16th century Japan when the first Jesuits arrived from Portugal to preach in the land of the samurai. Shogun Oda Nobunaga was a close friend of Father Luís Fróis (1532 - 1597), a Portuguese missionary who worked in Asia, especially Japan, during the second half of the 16th century.

Since there is historical evidence, alongside with discussions among scholars and historians in Japan, I would suggest including a section in the main text that points out this possibility.

As a reference to this debate, please see episode 37 of "Oda Nobunaga - King of Zipangu". Taiga Drama by NHK, the Japanese broadcasting corporation, produced in 1992.

https://dramacool.rs/oda-nobunaga-episode-37.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.211.110.3 (talk) 08:02, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

We can't source something as contentious as this to a drama produced in the 1990s; find a reliable source if possible. You can find Wikipedia's sourcing policies here.--Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) ({{ping}} me!) 13:01, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Researcher and author Naoko F. Hioki, in her paper entitled: "Tea ceremony as dialogical space: The Jesuits and the way of tea in early modern Japan", published in 2008 by the Theology Department of Boston College, although refuting the concept from a religious point of view, acknowledges the debate, and quotes as such:

" Kakuzo Okakura, The Book of Tea, xvi. Recently, some scholars have pointed out a similarity between Eucharist and the tea ceremony, and they seem to claim as if there was a direct connection between the tea ceremony and Catholic Eucharist, in terms of the formality of the ritual and also of their communal function. I would contest to such a comparison, however, on the ground that the Japanese tea ceremony has nothing to do with sacramental “presence.” Cf. Bernard Hassan, “What Makes Catholicism Unique and Vital,” The American Catholic Catalog (New York: Harper & Row, 1980): vii-xiv; Soichi Masubuchi, Sado to Jujika (Tokyo: Kadokawa Sensho,); Nakamaro Abe, Shinko no Bigaku (Tokyo: Shunpu-sha, 2004), 80-2."

I believe a further analysis of the books mentioned by the writer would settle the fact that there is indeed such discussion. Here is the link to the Boston College published paper (page 9):

https://dlib.bc.edu/islandora/object/bc-ir:102764/datastream/PDF/view

Hioki refutes the "religious or sacramental" influence of Christianity but does not deny that there could have been an "aesthetical dialogue" in terms of formality and ritual.

As another source, allow me to quote author John Doughill, who states in his book entitled "In Search of Japan's Hidden Christians: A Story of Suppression, Secrecy and Survival", that "modern-day descendant of the tea master, Sen Soshitsu, has argued persuasively for the Catholic influence, and once the connection is pointed out the similarities are striking. Raising the tea to head height as a token of respect, for instance, and wiping the bowl after drinking with a white cloth. There is indeed in the whole ritual a sense of two or three gathering together in spiritual union. Could the okashi (Japanese confectionery) that accompanies the green tea have been inspired by the wafer that accompanies wine in the Mass?"

For another reliable source, please see "An Anthropological Perspective on the Japanese Tea Ceremony", by Herbert Plutschow, published by the East Asian Languages & Cultures Journal of Generative Anthropology of the University of California at Los Angeles. Professor Plutschow states that "In more than a single aspect, Tea contains striking similarities with the Catholic Mass. Whereas the wine represents the blood of Christ, the tea is at once the center of the universe and a means to harmonize with the essence of things. Tea is a communal event in which all, high and low, daimyo and merchants were able to participate. This is like the Holy Communion in the Mass which kings shared with the commoners. Unlike the Mass, however, Tea is not based on a particular historical remembrance, such as Christ’s Last Supper, and does not re-present a given event in the past. The two rituals are similar, however, in the way they create communitas through direct participation."

Here's the link to Professor Plutschow publication: http://anthropoetics.ucla.edu/ap0501/tea/

Professor Herbert Plutschow received his PhD in Japanese studies from Columbia University, New York, in 1973. He subsequently taught Japanese cultural history at the University of California at Los Angeles (UCLA), retiring in 2005. He has taught as visiting faculty at the Universität Zürich, International Christian University (ICU), Tokyo, Leningrad State University, International Research Center for Japanese Studies, Kyoto, École des Hautes Études (Sorbonne, Paris), Kyoto University and at Meiji Gakuin University, Tokyo. At present, he is Director of the Institute of Comparative Culture, Josei International University, Japan.

As a final reliable source, please see "The Tea Ceremony and the Communion of Equals", by Isaac M. Kikawada, published in 1973 by the University of Berkeley, California. PhD Professor Kikawada states that: "Rikyu's innovation was extensive as well as intensive--he advocated the use of home-made and simple utensils rather than the expensive and elaborate Chinese imports; he preferred bamboo objects to metal objects, for example. He even went so far as to use Raku-yaki, which, is an instant pottery with a crude glaze. He hated imitations; he honored the uniqueness of each occasion of the Tea Ceremony and that of each tea personage. The greatest innovation he introduced at this time, was the incorporation of the order of the Roman Catholic Mass into the Otemae, the order of making and drinking tea at the Tea Ceremony.

Rikyu's revolutionary innovation was a synthetic one. Just as the Southern Zen Buddhists of China fused Buddhism and Taoism many centuries before, Rikyu fused the Tea ceremony of the Southern Zen Buddhist tradition with the rites of the European religion in which ceremonial eating and drinking occupied central importance. Although both the Tea and Mass have long history independently reaching far beyond the time of Christ, this topic requires another study. This fusion, however, did not institute a new syncretic religion, although one may consider that the spirit of the non-sacrificial part of the mass, that is the communion part of the mass, was well understood and incorporated into the tea ceremony, but this fusion helped to perfect Rikyu's Tea Ceremony and at the same time it created a neutral place for all classes of people to come together on an equal footing."

In his publication, Professor Kikawada extensively and minutely delineates each and every step of Tea Ceremony and its direct correlation to the Catholic Mass and the Eucharist ceremony.

Here's the link to Professor Kikawada's publication: https://www.academia.edu/37382794/THE_TEA_CEREMONY_AND_THE_COMMUNION_OF_EQUALS

PhD Professor Isaac Mitzuru Kikawada taught at the Department of Near Eastern Studies, University of California, Berkeley until his retirement.

I believe it is important to note that this discussion does not revolve around Christian theological influence on tea ceremony. Rather, it proposes a mere aesthetical and ritualistic influence of the Eucharist mass. Not only the presence of Jesuits in Japan is a well-known historical fact, but their presence was allowed and fostered, I repeat, by none other than shogun Oda Nobunaga himself, who was notoriously given to "exoticness" and all things foreign. Again, the current rules for tea ceremony were established during this historical period, and the fact that many important daimyos were Christians only strengthens the suggested discussion.

Also, I believe the mentioned NHK drama cannot be dismissed as an "unreliable" source of reference and evidence simply because it is a TV drama made in the 90s. Stronger arguments must be made to make such inadequate dismissal. It is important to take into consideration that these TV series have a massive audience, and these historical dramas especially are written under very tight scrutiny. Such a piece of information would not simply be "put out there" had there been no serious research done on top of it. It is quite obvious that the producers of NHK have far more access to scholars of their own culture than Wikipedia specialists.

Furthermore, as an Encyclopedia, it is important for the main text to acknowledge such discussion since it exists and is relevant. It is only contentious for those who take tea ceremony as a religious practice, but it shouldn't be understood as such from a historical and anthropological understanding. In my humble view, and as a non-believer of both Christianity and Buddhism, it is far from being contentious - quite the contrary, it only adds color to such beautiful art, and that seems to be the opinion of the producers of NHK as well - also called the Japan Broadcasting Corporation, which is the Japanese government-owned public broadcaster, serving approximately 380 million households in approximately 160 countries and regions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.211.110.71 (talk) 06:01, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

Okay. Let's go through this.

Okakura Kakuzo's Book of Tea states that "tea ceremony spread into the early modern Japanese society, not as a religious sacrament, but as a secular and social sacrament". I hadn't realised you were copying from footnote 14 of the first paper linked.

Hioki does provide which scholars - one paper published in 1980 in The American Catholic Catalog, "What Makes Catholicism Unique and Vital", Sadō to Jūjika (茶道と十字架, "Tea ceremony and the Cross") by Shoichi Masabuchi, published by Kadokawa Shoten in 2009, and "Aesthetics of faith" (信仰の美學, Shinkō no Bigaku) by Nakamaro Abe, published by Shunpūsha in 2005. I can't read Japanese, so I have no way of verifying the latter two sources; I can't find an online copy of the former source, either, apart from a very out-of-date listing on Amazon. I have to take Hioki at her word on the discussion of these sources:

"...they seem to claim as if there was a direct connection between the tea ceremony and Catholic Eucharist, in terms of the formality of the ritual and also of their communal function. I would contest to such a comparison, however, on the ground that the Japanese tea ceremony has nothing to do with sacramental "presence."" - refuting the similarities as being nothing more than appearance only.

"I believe a further analysis of the books mentioned by the writer would settle the fact that there is indeed such discussion." - I'm not sure if you're getting confused here; Hioki does argue that such discussion exists, but refutes its validity.

From Tea ceremony as dialogical space: The Jesuits and the way of tea in early modern Japan, page 1:

"They were well aware of the fact that the origin of the tea ceremony was Zen Buddhism and that Rikyu's way of tea had implicitly maintained the spirituality of Zen, even though the practice appeared secular explicitly. The missionaries, however, not only participated in the tea ceremonies, but they also noted that practicing the tea ceremony positively influenced the spiritual growth of some distinguished Japanese Christians, who were also tea masters."

This is a better explanation; I would have led with this. You started this section with "[chadō is] believed to have originated in, or at least been influenced by the Catholic ceremony of the Eucharist, or even Transubstantiation" - this source paints an extremely different picture, of Jesuit missionaries in the context of existing tea ceremony practices, and portrays the involvement of missionaries in tea ceremony as a setting for intellectual dialogue within an otherwise "highly antagonistic" (page 1) relationship.

Catholicism, and Catholic missionaries as an extension, have always lent themselves much more heavily to syncretism than Protestant missionaries, and the discussion of tea ceremony in the context of growing Japanese Catholic Christian practices makes sense.

However, it does not imply that tea ceremony took its roots from the Eucharist, as you suggest; more that similarities were noted, tea ceremony was considered by some missionaries a valid method of meditation with the potential for expansion as part of a syncretic Christian practice, and that it was a setting of interest and dialogue for missionaries as a form of contemplation and possibly prayer. The first page of this paper states that even though tea ceremony appeared "secular explicitly", missionaries were "well aware of the fact that the origin of the tea ceremony was Zen Buddhism and that Rikyu's way of tea had implicitly maintained the spirituality of Zen". I don't see a description of intent to force Christian spirituality into its place within the paper's description of missionary interactions and perceptions of tea ceremony.

"Hioki refutes the "religious or sacramental" influence of Christianity but does not deny that there could have been an "aesthetical dialogue" in terms of formality and ritual." - I can't find reference to the quote "aesthetical dialogue" within the paper you linked.

John Dougill's In Search of Japan's Hidden Christians: A Story of Suppression, Secrecy and Survival, published in 2012, I managed to track down a copy of. I looked at reviews to get a take on what the book covers, what its style is, and how it covers things, and they were not convincing:

"Mr. Dougill's book is written as a travelogue interspersed with history..." - a travelogue isn't necessarily unreliable, but it is markedly more informal than I thought this source would be.

"One thing that bothered me though (and it may not bother anyone else), was that Mr. Dougill appears to be somewhat of a pseudo-Shintoist trying to explain Christian doctrines and beliefs, and his theological understanding is average at best. Personally, I would've preferred this book to display a better grasp of the doctrinal beliefs of the early Jesuits, as well as the Hidden Christians, but that might just be me being picky."

Theology is a shaky discipline; sources have to be good, especially for tangentially-related but potentially-contentious theories such as the following, found on page 81 of Dougill's book:

"...modern-day descendant of the tea master, Sen Soshitsu, has argued persuasively for the Catholic influence, and once the connection is pointed out the similarities are striking. Raising the tea to head height as a token of respect, for instance, and wiping the bowl after drinking with a white cloth. There is indeed in the whole ritual a sense of two or three gathering together in spiritual union. Could the okashi (Japanese confectionery) that accompanies the green tea have been inspired by the wafer that accompanies wine in the Mass? Food for thought, indeed..."

No citation for this; nor could I find mention of Sen Shoshitsu in the book's bibliography. I believe Dougill misremembers wagashi as 'okashi'; the History section of the wagashi article does mention that their development was influenced by the introduction of tea to Japan in the 8th century, but the connection that wagashi were influenced by tea ceremony, in turn influenced by Catholic Mass, hinges entirely on this claim of Eucharistic influence, shaky as it is. It almost certainly wasn't influenced by it; wagashi developed seemingly on their own, and became part of tea ceremony at one point, likely to complement the taste of green tea.

A handful of other reviews talking about the book's content did not reassure me further...

"As far as the religious studies content, some of the author's determinations about Japan's religious practices are boiled down so much they are useless at best and offensive at worst."

"Much of the book was devoted to describing the Jesuits' arrivals and departures and the atrocities that the Japanese believers had to endure because of their faith, but without an understanding of what that faith was and why believers were so devoted to it, I find it hard to understand how any of that history happened."

I don't think this book - which cites nothing in this instance and otherwise seems to have a shaky grasp on Jesuit theology in early Christian Japan - can be reliably used for a source.

"An Anthropological Perspective on the Japanese Tea Ceremony", by Herbert Plutschow, published by the East Asian Languages & Cultures Journal of Generative Anthropology of the University of California at Los Angeles - this source illustrates similarities, but again, no evidence of influence. It echoes Hioki's assessment that early Jesuit missionaries to Japan found similarities in the spiritual aspect of tea ceremony and Catholic Mass as a form of meditation, but does not conclude influence of one over the other.

"I believe it is important to note that this discussion does not revolve around Christian theological influence on tea ceremony...the current rules for tea ceremony were established during this historical period, and the fact that many important daimyos were Christians only strengthens the suggested discussion."

I don't think the discussion is Christian theological influence on tea ceremony, either, and I think it's this reason that makes this argument weak. If the Eucharist had significant, or any, influence on the development of tea ceremony, it would be a religious one. That's literally the point of missionary work: conversion. It's true that Catholicism lends itself to syncretism where Protestantism does not, but ultimately, that influence would de facto be a theological influence, like it or not.

You note the heavy influence of Christian daimyō at the time; either their beliefs had impact on tea ceremony, which would by definition be a theological influence, or they did not.

If they did - the discussion is the development of syncretic Catholic beliefs in early Japanese Christians. But I've seen nothing to suggest that the influence of the Eucharist specifically had impact in the development of tea ceremony and its rules and practices. In fact, the sources you've mentioned actually refute this.

"Also, I believe the mentioned NHK drama cannot be dismissed as an "unreliable" source of reference and evidence simply because it is a TV drama made in the 90s."

No, it can be dismissed. We have clear guidelines on reliability; a 1990s TV drama would not pass anyone's standards. Even if it were accurate, it's not an encyclopedic source.

"It is important to take into consideration that these TV series have a massive audience, and these historical dramas especially are written under very tight scrutiny."

You're making an assumption about a TV drama in the 90s. I don't know that they are written under "very tight scrutiny". I live in the UK; The Tudors also had a massive audience here, and despite being produced for an American channel, was written by British people and shot in England for the most part. You think that stopped them from engaging considerable artistic license to produce an entertaining piece of TV, just because it was written by British people and filmed in the UK, and because it was British history? It didn't.

"Such a piece of information would not simply be "put out there" had there been no serious research done on top of it."

It's a TV drama. Yes it's Japanese; no it doesn't stop them from engaging artistic license. It's a strange insistence that because it's Japanese, it's scrutinously accurate to cultural tradition and history.

"It is quite obvious that the producers of NHK have far more access to scholars of their own culture than Wikipedia specialists."

Almost certainly; but they can just choose not to.

Unless you were there, saw the scripts being written and how the show itself was produced, you can't make assumptions that they paid loads of attention to detail. It's weird to assume no-one ever creatively reinvents their own culture for TV, and that it's their Traditional Culture, so it Must Have Been Made Accurately. If nothing else, I don't think the writers would have been given the time to engage in deep-dive research for a daytime TV drama.

Just because it was made in Japan, does not make it accurate to Japanese history. In the same way that many Chinese historical dramas throw costuming accuracy out of the window and pretend the second half of the 19th century didn't exist, despite having been made and produced in China with an all-Chinese cast and crew, a Japanese drama produced in Japan with an all-Japanese cast and crew isn't by definition prone to greater accuracy. Artistic license abounds. Including in this drama.

"Furthermore, as an Encyclopedia, it is important for the main text to acknowledge such discussion since it exists and is relevant."

It's not relevant, and if it's not notable - and this isn't - it certainly isn't relevant. We go by the sources we have access to, and none of the sources we have access to support these claims as "relevant".

"It is only contentious for those who take tea ceremony as a religious practice, but it shouldn't be understood as such from a historical and anthropological understanding."

I don't know how to explain to you that these claims aren't being shot down because of some stalwart conservative belief in the preservation of religious ceremony; they're being shot down because there's nothing to support them. It doesn't "add colour" if it isn't verifiable - it just adds unencyclopedic fluff that doesn't improve anything. Or, alternatively:

"...it only adds color to such beautiful art, and that seems to be the opinion of the producers of NHK as well".

"Colour" doesn't have to be accurate. It just has to look pretty. Adding "a bit of colour" to a historical drama is something that happens all the time - and accuracy is never a forefront concern.

"...also called the Japan Broadcasting Corporation, which is the Japanese government-owned public broadcaster, serving approximately 380 million households in approximately 160 countries and regions."

The fact that NHK couldn't write an inaccurate TV drama because it's government-owned is laughable. They can misrepresent whatever they want for TV to make a good drama with an engaging plotline. I guarantee you very few of those 380 million households will place accuracy above how engaging the story is; I guarantee you that inaccuracies would not have stopped it from being made.--Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) ({{ping}} me!) 14:49, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

____

Dear Sir/Madam, with all due respect, I beg to differ. Apparently, you seem to have bypassed another piece of evidence presented thus far, certainly a compelling one. If I may, allow me to reproduce parts of my previous message, and present further documents that corroborate the view I am presenting.

Before I do so, though, let me dispute some of your claims. As you stated, “Hioki does provide with scholars”. As you yourself acknowledge, the discussion is real, and if I may, pertinent indeed since there are scholarly writings published on the matter, not only in English but mostly in their native language (which seem to be the main issue here). In fact, as I shall demonstrate later, not only academic research has been presented, but entire books were written by people with a far deeper understanding on the matter, I believe, than us both.

Sadō to Jūjika (茶道と十字架, "Tea ceremony and the Cross") by Shoichi Masabuchi, published by Kadokawa Shoten is clearly striking as first evidence. The title of the paper is self-explanatory! There are other writings on this theme in Japanese as well, such as Kirishitan to chanoyu ― Oribe wa kirishitan ka? (キリシタンと茶の湯―織部はキリシタンか? - 古田織部 “Christianity and Tea Ceremony - Is Oribe Christian?” written by Furuta Oribe), and Gunshi Sen'norikyū ― Hideyoshi ansatsu keikaku to kirishitan daimyō (軍師 千利休――秀吉暗殺計画とキリシタン大名 - 加治 将一“Sen no Rikyu-Hideyoshi assassination plan and Christian daimyo” by Masakazu Kaji). I tried, in fact, to present publications in English, but evidently, the number of publications in the mentioned language is scarce given the obvious lack of interest in this particular part of history that pertains to the Japanese, the Portuguese, the Spanish, and the Italian. Anglos arrived in the Japanese peninsula centuries later, as I’m sure you know well, and that is likely to be reason for the lack of publications in your language. Thus, if the Japanese language is a hindrance to you, I’d be glad to be of assistance in translating parts of these books should the notable editor deem necessary. I will present here just a few excerpts for your appreciation from Sadō to Jūjika (茶道と十字架, "Tea ceremony and the Cross"):

“The Japanese missionary reports from 1549, written by Father Luis Frois ("History of Japan - 12 volumes)" and "History of the Japanese Church" by Father Joan Rodriguez (João Rodriguez - História da Igreja Japonesa) have been translated and published in Japanese. From a religious aspect of religion and cross-cultural exchange, earlier studies suggest a relationship between Wabi-cha and Christianity, which Sen no Rikyu acknowledged. The later schools of Iemoto, Omotesenke, Urasenke, and Mushakojisenke have already admitted that fact, especially the Urasenke and the Iemoto, who have stated that "the spirituality of equality and forgiveness conveyed by Rikyu's tea ceremony" is the spirit of Christianity. […]

The encounter between Christianity and the tea ceremony in Japan dates back to the time of Francis Xavier, who first arrived in Japan in 1549, and later by missionary Luis Frois, who wrote extensively about the Jesuits' understanding of Japan and its culture (port.: Tratado em que se contem muito susinta e abreviadamente algumas contradições e diferenças de costumes entre a gente da Europa e esta provincia do Japão, 1585).

[…] When Xavier visited the city of Sakai (hometown of celebrated tea ceremony master Rykyu) the year after Frois's "Comparison of Japanese and European Cultures" was published (1586), Ryokei Hibiya, one of Sakai’s wealthiest merchants and a Christian tea master, welcomed Xavier and his party. Ryokei would go through various tea ceremony venues every day with familiar wealthy merchants. The missionary Luis Almeida was invited by Ryokei to a tea ceremony held at his home to celebrate his baptism and joy. Almeida stated that "After the meal, everyone knelt down and thanked our Lord Deus. These are the Japanese Christians. The solemnity of the ritual of both religions was harmoniously blended in the tea ceremony. This is said to be the first encounter between the tea ceremony and Christianity.

[…] Sen no Rikyu found a sense of unity between East and West religious views. When Rikyu opened a new path to the tea ceremony, Christianity gradually spread throughout Japan, even among Sengoku era Daimyos, such as Takayama Hikogorō, who later adopted the Christian name of Dom Justo Takayama Ukon, and Konishi Yukinaga, who later adopted the Christian name of Agostinho. There is plenty of debate about whether Rikyu himself was a Christian. Nevertheless, although many theories have been exchanged, it is a well-documented historical fact that Rikyu was openly mentioned in the list of baptisms by Christian missionaries. In fact, in Dom Justo Takayama’s Beatification Memorial issued by the Vatican, Sen no Rikyu is included as one of his many of his disciples. Such is the basis for the claims that Ukon introduced Christianity to Sen no Rikyu and led him to Christianity."

It seems to me that, at this stage, we can leave Hioki’s words (and essentially biased opinions) behind. That there were direct communications is evidently a historical fact, whether Hioki likes it or not (her opinion formulated possibly under nationalistic and/or religious sentiment, but that is a mere personal assumption, I admit).

From the very beginning, my assertions were based on the fact that there are clear similarities in appearance and probable influence. But should you have access to the mentioned literature, Japanese scholars seem to go far deeper into the actual religious influence Christianity had on Sen no Rikyu, claiming that he may in fact have converted. These authors don’t “seem to claim”, as Hioki evasively states. They categorically confirm it. Still mentioning Hioki’s work though, she herself states, on page 12, quoting Hubert Cieslik publication (also in Japanese) "Sado to Kirishitan no Deai, Kirishitan Bunka Kenkyu-kai Kaiho”, that “five of Rikyu’s main disciples were Christians.

I apologize if my first entrance to this topic was misleading. I never meant to say Christianity created Tea Ceremony. There is no doubt that chadō existed way before the arrival of the members of the Iberian Empire and of the Vatican. Nevertheless, the Sengoku period, apart from its never-ending wars, was also a time of meetings with foreigners, and most importantly, a chance for the Japanese to finally depart from their eternal attempt to distance themselves from Chinese influence and “everything old”. The lives of Oda Nobunaga, the merchants of Sakai, and Rikyu himself are blatant evidence of this. They all embraced the novelties of Europe. What I meant was that some of the current rituals of chadō, as delineated by Sen No Rikyu, could probably have originated and been influenced by the Catholic mass and the Eucharist, especially given the fact that many scholars claim, in these many publications, that Sen no Rikyu might have converted to Christianity. (Please read the books!)

I would like to reinforce that the influence of the Eucharist ritual on Tea Ceremony is not simply my suggestion. As you can see, plenty of material has been published in the Japanese language, but in other relevant languages to the matter such as Portuguese, Italian, and Latin. Again, it is my intent to demonstrate that there are valid dialogues in the possibility that the ritual might have been influenced by the Eucharist mass. Yet, again, the writers of the mentioned books dive deep into the theology of it all, clearly stating, contrary to your belief, that there was in fact an amalgamation of Buddhist and Christian beliefs on the part of Sen no Rikyu.

Nevertheless, that is not my intention here, for I honestly (and humbly) don't agree. Tea ceremony is clearly a Buddhist rite, yet there is plenty of published material as well pointing out the similarities between the teachings of Christ and the Buddha, therefore, to arrive at the conclusion that there are similarities (if not influence) on the theology of Tea Ceremony is not a far fetched concept either - but that's another discussion. As mentioned earlier, some of these authors suggest that Rikyu was in fact a Christian convert, just as many of his closest disciples and other notorious figures of the same era. If such is the case, then the influence of the Eucharist would have deeper consequences beyond mere aesthetics, which is the opinion of other writers. I myself support the view that the influence is in ritual only.

Now, as to John Dougill's In Search of Japan's Hidden Christians: A Story of Suppression, Secrecy, and Survival, from your text I think it is fair to state that your opinion on this book is based on quick reviews online, a common mistake if I may, for every single review can be countered by someone with a different opinion. Allow me to ask - who are these people whose opinion you immediately took on? Your views on Professor Dougill’s book cannot be taken into consideration if you haven’t made the effort to read it. With all due respect, you are not in a position to discredit the Professor’s work based on online reviews. That is utterly not encyclopedic.

In order to clarify things, John Dougill has lived in Japan for over twenty years and is a professor of British Culture at Ryukoku Buddhist University in the heart of Kyoto. He is an associate editor for Japanese Religions and co-author of a guide to Shinto Shrines, educated at Leeds and Oxford Universities. As well as following the path of early Christians around Kyushu, he has journeyed from Lake Baikal to Lake Biwa in search of Japan's shamanistic roots and traversed the country researching Japan's World Heritage Sites. Let it be said, Professor Dougill’s deeply researched views are far more valuable than any of the mentioned reviews you embraced. I stay with the professor. Perhaps contacting the Professor for an accurate view would be the right course of action for an encyclopedia - not book reviews! As the old saying goes: "do not judge a book by its cover".

As to professor Herbert Plutschow publication, the idea has never been to “conclude anything with irrefutable evidence”, so dear to the encyclopaedian’s heart, but to present the fact that, as mentioned in my title, there is a “probable influence”, and that this discussion is valid and real, acknowledged by many notorious scholars in different lands – it is not, by all means, my opinion only.” Again, if you cannot read in the language in which most of these materials were produced, then your assessment is the one that is at fault, along with Hioki's, which you used to base your assertions. All of these authors confirm a dialogue and, I repeat, a probable influence (not only in terms of rites but of belief as well). The argument, I beg to differ, is not weak. It is just hard to refute given your language barriers.

Also, as mentioned at the beginning of this reply, you completely dismissed Berkeley University Professor Mikada’s views. Allow me to reproduce them here, and add some information for you:

Please see "The Tea Ceremony and the Communion of Equals", by Isaac M. Kikawada, published in 1973 by the University of Berkeley, California. Ph.D. Professor Kikawada states:

"Rikyu's innovation was extensive as well as intensive--he advocated the use of homemade and simple utensils rather than the expensive and elaborate Chinese imports; he preferred bamboo objects to metal objects, for example. He even went so far as to use Raku-yaki, which, is a pottery with a crude glaze. He hated imitations; he honored the uniqueness of each occasion of the Tea Ceremony and that of each tea personage. The greatest innovation he introduced at this time, was the incorporation of the order of the Roman Catholic Mass into the Otemae, the order of making and drinking tea at the Tea Ceremony. [...] Rikyu's revolutionary innovation was a synthetic one. Just as the Southern Zen Buddhists of China fused Buddhism and Taoism many centuries before, Rikyu fused the Tea ceremony of the Southern Zen Buddhist tradition with the rites of the European religion in which ceremonial eating and drinking occupied central importance. Although both the Tea and Mass have long history independently reaching far beyond the time of Christ, this topic requires another study. This fusion, however, did not institute a new syncretic religion, although one may consider that the spirit of the non-sacrificial part of the mass, that is the communion part of the mass, was well understood and incorporated into the tea ceremony, but this fusion helped to perfect Rikyu's Tea Ceremony and at the same time it created a neutral place for all classes of people to come together on an equal footing.

For robust evidence, please see Professor Kikawada Berkeley's publication, where he extensively and minutely delineates each and every step of Tea Ceremony and its direct correlation to the Catholic Mass and the Eucharist ceremony.

As a final literary suggestion on the matter (in Japanese I’m afraid), you have Kirishitan Sen no Rikyu: Shishi jiken no nazo o toku, (Chrisitan Sen no Rikyu: The mystery of Sen no Rikyu) by Muan Yamada (again, the title speaks volumes!). In this book, Yamada goes as far as to claim, as did the aforementioned authors, that Sen no Rikyu was in fact Christian, but hid his beliefs due to political implications.

These publications also reveal in-depth the frustration of these earlier Jesuits such as Francisco Xavier, Cosme de Torres, Juan Fernandez, Pedro Martins, Luis Frois, and especially Alessandro Valignano, who openly declared that “many Japanese were being converted not due to an authentic Christian feeling, but out of an allegiance to the tastes of the shogun”. Therefore, although religious development is technically “the point of missionary work”, one can infer from the words of these missionaries that it was not always an easy task. Can people fake conversion? They sure can. It happens all the time in criminal hearings and it is not surprising that the Japanese people would behave in a similar fashion (including Sen no Rikyu).

These authors suggest that Japanese converts “en masse” were linked to politics, not really to faith, which is an observable historical fact in many other nations that went through the process of colonization. Therefore you are wrong to claim that the development of religion is “the point” of missionary work. It might be on the surface, but history reveals that the agenda of European conquering powers were actually at play, like it or not. That is, in fact, the reason why Toyotomi Hideyoshi banned Christianity from Japan, which culminated in the terrible incident of The Twenty-Six Martyrs of Japan, who were executed by crucifixion under Hideyoshi’s command once he realized Nobunaga’s naiveté in believing that these missionaries only had religion as their raison d'être.

You seem to insist that “you've seen nothing to suggest that the influence of the Eucharist specifically had an impact in the development of tea ceremony and its rules and practices.” Well, again, you’d need access to the language, and read thoroughly all the mentioned books to see that that is exactly what it is implied by these many scholars, (and acknowledged by Hioki, by the way).

On a lighter note, as to NHK drama being accepted as evidence, I must say I find it fascinating that Wikipedia would have such strict rules to what is accepted as evidence - stricter than a court of Law! Although Wikipedia editors have their own rules (and I’m not debating them), I believe anyone would agree that the fact that a government-owned TV corporation chose to broadcast that information (Eucharist and Tea Ceremony) to their entire population is not a mere artistic license as you suggest, and it should be accepted as reference. Nonetheless, I'll leave that to Wikipedia's tight scrutiny.

I am not making any assumptions about TV in the 90s as you erroneously insist – what I am stating is that the Japanese government has had a well-established program to educate their population through historical dramas (Taiga dramas), that have been aired since the 60s. Granted that Japanese TV has plenty of shows that are mere fantasy, like any other country in the world, but Taiga dramas are produced for educational purposes (I’m sure you’re aware that the educational levels of Japan far supersedes that of the UK, or Europe for that matter). These shows are not mere entertainment, therefore the comparison with The Tudors cannot be taken into consideration either. I am not saying that they don’t engage in artistic license, but the Japanese are notorious for being scrutinously accurate indeed, especially when it comes to the education of their people, something that cannot be said to be true in Europe or America for that matter since there are no known long-standing governmental programs aimed to educate the general public using the media of TV as seen in Japan, which most certainly aids in their high levels of literacy.

Speaking about assumptions, when you replied to my statement that "It is quite obvious that the producers of NHK have far more access to scholars of their own culture than Wikipedia specialists.” - “Almost certainly; but they can just choose not to.” – now this is an assumption and mere opinion. They sure can, but it doesn’t seem to case here, or do you honestly believe so? As I stated before, Taiga dramas have an educational purpose, and the inclusion of this specific information by government-owned TV series follows this trend. It is not a mere artistic license as you claim. They did not create this information just to entertain people. They based it on their own understanding of their culture, and chose to propagate the population in this regard in order to educate, not entertain. They themselves admit there is debate and speculation, and my intent has always been to simply demonstrate that - that the Japanese people themselves acknowledge a probable influence

It seems to me that you are the one insisting on the idea the information propagated by NHK revealing the discussion of the probable influence of the Eucharist on Tea Ceremony are “creative inventions”, with “little accuracy” and “no deep-dive research”. Quite the contrary, especially when it comes to a TV drama with clear educational purposes. Again, I’m not stating that artistic license does not abound as you stated. Yet, you seem to use this as a valid argument to discredit the given information, which can clearly be deemed as intellectual laziness. Is the influence of the Eucharist on Tea Ceremony, widely discussed and written about by Japanese and foreign scholars alike, and clearly chosen by NHK as a piece of cultural and educational information, mere artistic license with entertainment purposes? I don’t think that is the case. An encyclopedia editor has the obligation to verify in depth these claims.

Thus, it is quite obvious that this discussion may not be, for whatever reasons, relevant to you, but it does exist and it is relevant to Japanese and foreign scholars, historians, anthropologists, and government-funded TV producers alike, and relevant enough for NHK to broadcast it to their entire country. There are plenty of sources on the matter. The real issue here, let it be said, is your inability to have access to the sources, and therefore your final verdict is clearly flawed. A third party, with actual fluency in the Japanese language (and Portuguese and Italian I daresay), would be necessary to demonstrate with clarity that which you cannot see, with all due respect.

I don’t really need you to explain anything to me. You are biasedly choosing to shoot down these claims simply because you cannot have access to the information that supports them. They are verifiable to those who can speak and read the languages, and then "the colors will be added" to your color-blind eyes indeed, to make use of the words of Masabuchi himself (pardon the poetic license).

Laughable (and rude) is your attempt to dismiss this important aspect of the history of Tea Ceremony based on your internet reviews of books and your inability to read in Japanese (Portuguese and Italian for that matter), and it makes me wonder if Wikipedia has actually chosen the best person to be the editor of Japanese related content. Keep your guaranties to yourself, O’ Not-So-Ineffable "bookkeeper". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.211.110.71 (talk) 05:05, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

Christ, I don't have time for this. Anyone else wants to wade through 20k of this reply, they're welcome to. If you want this content to be added to the article, you'll have to build consensus on the Talk page here first; if you add it without consensus, it will likely be removed. You can find Wikipedia's policy on building consensus here.--Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) ({{ping}} me!) 12:42, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

So true as the "european continent". Sakeside (talk) 22:28, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

There's a lot of erroneous information in this article. I edited some of it out.

Hi, I don't know how wikipedia editing works but I've removed some erroneous information and edited the wording in the intro. If you would like to dispute or remove my edits please discuss them here or on my page before doing so. Some of the references on this page are not professional or are severely problematic/outdated or are not relevant and should be removed. If a more skilled editor would like to add some more current or more relevant references please refer to a spreadsheet of scholarly literature on chanoyu (tea ceremony) I have created here: [6]https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Ubsf8xnfgsnT-onFGzxNp_ramyM5Z5ANE_VNns56vbg/edit?usp=sharing MiaoTuLu (talk) 23:50, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

Hallo, not quite sure what you are referring to since you removed information that was referenced, also your link is not working. Feel free to add or correct information in the article but do not remove it. Gryffindor (talk) 01:18, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Multiple articles on the same subject?

This article should be merged into East Asian tea ceremony - Wikipedia, as they are just regional variations on the same practice with the same origin Sakeside (talk) 22:31, 14 August 2023 (UTC)