Talk:Mahram

Spouse

Could someone please allay my confusion: This article states that having sex with one's husband/wife is considered incesteous by Sharias. How does this branch of Islam stay populated?--ZayZayEM 03:18, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I re-wrote the article and tried to clarify the contradiction. --Pouya 12:16, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

So, I'm still confused, is it that incest isn't consider taboo in Sharia? What is the point of having a set of people considered inecsteous or mahram then?--ZayZayEM 04:00, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Okay better. Two more points still getting me.

1. How does one have sex with one's spouse without being taboo
2. why is it specifically "incesteous", especially seeing as many Mahram people don't appear to be relatives. Would it be better to say, "It is a taboo equivalent to incest".

--ZayZayEM 08:25, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

First, thanks for posing these questions to reduce the ambiguity in the article. Sometimes one can't see some inconsistencies because the whole fact is too obvious for them.

Second,

1. Extra-marital sex is a taboo, no matter partner is a mahram (in case of incest) or not (in case of adultery). But note that rules regarding incest and adultery are different in Islam.
2. The point is that, technically, in Islam incest is extra-marital heterosexual intercourse with a mahram. So no matter one is a relative or not (as it happens in case of radha' mahrams), incest happens when they have sex with a mahram. So the circle of relatives that having sex with them is concidered incestuous is defined by mahram-hood (this word doesn't exist actually ;) ). This definition really widens the circle of relatives that definition of incest commonly covers.

Third, I also added some points, check whether this helps califying the point or not. --Pouya 19:58, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Qur'an - Hadith citations

Can any contributor to this article cite relevant quotes from the Qur'an or Hadith and maybe as a latter resource from scholarly works in order to make the readin aware of wear these rulings came from (and also to eliminate ambiguity and to give the reader further resource as to where they can back up any claims made in this article). gren 08:16, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Unmarriageable kin

Thats not correct, what if my child divorces his wife, we will still be mahram (unamriable), but not be "kins"... or have i missundertood the word "kin"? --Striver 04:57, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Who is a Mahram in Islam?

The following was posted on the article by User talk:80.168.112.226 at 11:52, 8 June 2006. <quote> I have found this on Islamway.com. I hope this will help. http://www.islamway.com/sisters/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=167

Who Is a Mahram in Islam? Posted byadministrator on Tuesday, February 19 @ 03:38:40 ?? Contributed by administrator

Al-Jumuah Magazine Issue 5

Any woman with whom a man has a relationship (of blood or fosterage) that precludes marriage, is considered a Mahram to him.

Mahram women include his mother, grandmother, daughter, granddaughter, sister, aunt, grandaunt, niece, grandniece, his father's wife, his wife's daughter, his mother-in-law, his foster mother (the one who nursed him), foster sisters, and any foster relatives that are similar to the above mentioned blood relatives as the Prophet (SAW) said, "What is forbidden by reason of kindship is forbidden by reason of suckling." (Al-Bukhari)

These are considered Maharim because Allah (SWT) mentioned them in the Holy Qur'an: "And marry not women whom your fathers married, except what has already passed; indeed it was shameful and most hateful, and an evil way. Forbidden to you (for marriage) are: your mothers, your daughters, your sisters, your father's sisters, your mother's sisters, your brother's daughters, your sister's daughters, your foster mother who gave you suck, your foster milk suckling sisters, your wives' mothers, your step-daughters under your guardianship, born of your wives to whom you have go in - but there is no sin on you if you have not gone in them (to marry their daughters), - the wives of your sons who (spring) from your own loins, and two sisters in wedlock at the same time, except for what has already passed; verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." (An-Nisa 4:22-23)

All the man's female relatives mentioned in these two verses are considered his Maharim, because it is unlawful (haram) for him to marry them, except the wife's sister mentioned last, who is not a Mahram because he can marry her if he divorces her sister, or if she dies. Reciprocally, if a woman is a Mahram to a man, such as her brother, her father, her uncle, etc. then he is a Mahram to her. All other relatives are considered non-Maharim and they fall under the category of strangers to her, except one's wife or husband who is also called Mahram. </quote> - Tangotango 11:55, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

More questions

I have a couple more questions:

1) The Ali article says: "Ali was the cousin of Muhammad, and after marriage to Fatima Zahra, he also became Muhammad's son-in-law." In Islam is it generally permitted to marry a cousin's daughter?

2) The Mahram article seems to imply two different uses of the term. The more common use seems to be "those with whom one may leave the house". The second, strict meaning seems to be "those with whom one may not have sex". Is this a correct interpretation of Mahram?

Logic

This is quite simple. The father of the mother of the grandmother (but not of the grandfather!) of the cousin of the niece of the grandson of the cousin of the neighbor of the daughter is allowed (or not?!) to travel in company of the uncle of the brother (but not the sister!) of the chief of the harem. Or not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vatavr (talk • contribs) 09:57, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Update: it could be much more complicated, such as: blood relatives are not allowed to have a sexual relationship with each other. Vatavr (talk) 10:03, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Comparative religion....

I found this interesting...

http://www.christianity-islam.com/woman.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.14.152.15 (talk) 06:11, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Refer to the Comparative religion article. Faro0485 (talk) 17:22, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Wikification of Arabic terms

I am about to Wikify the article to conform to MOS:Ety, for most of the article mahram is correctly italicised but there are several places where it is not, and also I will de-capitalize it where it is capitalized as it is not a proper noun. I noted that the article says that there is no upper-case / lower-case distinction in Arabic and in the article it is mostly lower-case. Captain Screebo (talk) 14:33, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

So I have started to try and harmonize the article, there are some things that are totally confusing and I have tried to edit to make clearer, a couple of tags have been added if you would like to clarify these issues. Sorry, I can find no explication for (sws) added after the name of the Prophet, or Jesus elsewhere on the web, I am well read and teach English, I have removed it as it is confusing and means nothing to me and is not present in any dictionaries I have consulted.

I have no agenda in doing any of this, I am just trying to clean-up the article and make it understandable to your average reader. Captain Screebo (talk) 21:24, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

I have a question about the phrase "(see also proxemics" which has a link to the Wikipedia article on proxemics. As far as I can tell it has no direct bearing on the material at hand. Perhaps the phrase and the link should be removed or at least explained? ```` Lucy Kemnitzer — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lucy Kemnitzer (talk • contribs) 16:50, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Stepsiblings

The article doesn't mention them - are they mahrams or not? Jim Michael (talk) 15:21, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Purdah and marriage

I want to explain one confusion. There is difference between persons from which purdah is not obligatory and with whom one cannot marry. Women are ordered to hide their private from everyone except their husbands and put their scarves over their bosoms. That is listed in Al-Quran 24:31. The women are ordered to hide their adornments except from

• husbands
• ancestors
• husbands' ancestors
• descendants
• husbands' descendants
• siblings
• descendants of siblings
• Muslim women
• bond women whom they own
• male servants free of sexual desire
• children which have yet no carnal knowledge

The people with whom a man cannot marry are different that are given in Al-Quran 4:23. They are following

• ancestors' spouse
• ancestors
• desendents
• siblings
• ancestors'siblings
• siblings' descendants
• foster female ancestors
• foster sibling
• spouse's ancestor
• spouse's descendants (if marriage was consummated)
• descendents' spouse
• two sisters at the same time.

There is difference between purdah and marriage. For example women cannot marry but have to do purdah such as

• ancestors' male sibling
• foster brother
• descendents' male spouse
• ancestors' male spouse

Similarly a women can marry a child when he has grown but don't need to hide her adornments during his childhood provided she is not his foster mother, as she cannot marry her foster son.. And so on. Bible khan (talk) 11:05, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

unreliable original research

The verse cited in the article is wrong. 4:22 of Koran. Have a look at HTTPS://Quran.com/4/23 The whole article was based on it thereby provide wrong information. So I have improved the article. Smatrah (talk) 10:46, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

Ottoman Turkish

@Pepperbeast:

Re: This edit

I'd like to clarify something about this edit. This isn't about making a list of translations - it's about historiography and helping people interested in researching Islamic governments up until World War I. The Ottoman Empire controlled Mecca, so in regards to politics and law it was not Arabic that was the important language (religion was done in Arabic, but politics and law were done in Turkish). This is reflected in two ways:

1. When you read articles about Ottoman Turkey written in the late 1800s/early 1900s, they will use Turkish, not Arabic, and not supplying the Turkish will mean a 21st century John Doe will get massively confused otherwise. Consider the word "sheri"

• Strauss, Johann (2010). "A Constitution for a Multilingual Empire: Translations of the Kanun-ı Esasi and Other Official Texts into Minority Languages". In Herzog, Christoph; Malek Sharif (eds.). The First Ottoman Experiment in Democracy. Wurzburg. p. 21–51.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (link) (info page on book at Martin Luther University)
• Cited: p. 39 (PDF p. 41/338) // "“Chéri” may sound ambiguous in French but the term, used in our context for Islamic law (Turkish: şer’(i), is widely used in the legal literature at that time."

21st century John Doe won't know that it's sharia unless he's told so. Audiences today should be advised about what words/spellings were used in Islamic legal literature at the time, or they won't understand the vocabulary. Wikipedia has an obligation to teach readers about this.

2. Also if I want to look up a law or legal code, Arabic won't help me go through the French or English law books as the terms will turn up empty if I search for them. I will need to know the word in Ottoman Turkish, and the articles about Islamic law therefore should include them.

Hope this helps! WhisperToMe (talk) 19:28, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

P.S. I am aware that Urdu, Persian, Indonesian, Bengali, etc. have their own terms, but the Ottomans controlled Mecca (making the Sultan the leader-of-sorts of Muslims) and that's what gives them extra importance. WhisperToMe (talk) 19:31, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

I think your impulse is a good one, but this article isn't about the Ottoman Empire in any sense, and Wikipedia is not a dictionary. PepperBeast (talk) 19:33, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

1. Consider the 1905 article here: "The religious law of the Sheri, of which the ultimate source is the Korean, is the dominant law in all Mahometan countries,[...]" - Strictly speaking Sharia isn't about any one country, but the fact the empire was the pre-eminent power means they controlled the language, so to speak. Now that the Arab countries are dominant, we use their Arabic words in English to discuss these topics. So while it's not strictly about them, the countries have a presence in the way the vocabulary is shaped.

2. A review of Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_dictionary:

• It against articles only being about definitions ("[...]but articles that contain nothing more than a definition should be expanded with additional encyclopedic content.") and it is against articles only being dictionary entries (" Encyclopedia articles are about a person, or a group, a concept, a place, a thing, an event, etc."). It does not say that articles cannot clarify differences in spelling/language in regards to historiography.

I am aware that articles are not supposed to contain every single language instance of a word (that's settled), but articles can and do explain what words are used in relevant languages for a concept. That may need to he hashed out in a Request for comment: I do think having words in Arabic, Persian (for Iran/Persia), and Turkish for Islamic topics would be useful for English-speaking readers.

WhisperToMe (talk) 19:48, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

@Pepperbeast: I decided to start an RFC on the matter Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Islam#Which_language_terminology_to_include_in_articles_about_Islamic_topics. Due to the breadth of the relevant articles I think a centralized RFC on the WikiProejct talk page would be a great idea WhisperToMe (talk) 20:28, 18 September 2019 (UTC)